Restoration Project #8 - Huge Bundle of HPI, Kyosho and HSP.

[gandalfnz]

Same spurs @ 44/39, with an 18/23 clutch bell instead of the stock 16/21. Just about 10% faster.

I will look into this... thanks

 

[gandalfnz]

@tudordewolf

I need your expertise on matter please.

So the engine arrived, I realized that none of the flywheels, flywheel spacers or pilots shafts that I own fit the engine shaft.
I have some parts from Kyosho, HSP and Traxxas but it seems I am out of luck.

Any suggestions what I can do here?

Cheers dude

 

[tudordewolf]

@tudordewolf

I need your expertise on matter please.

So the engine arrived, I realized that none of the flywheels, flywheel spacers or pilots shafts that I own fit the engine shaft.
I have some parts from Kyosho, HSP and Traxxas but it seems I am out of luck.

Any suggestions what I can do here?

Cheers dude

View attachment 163818

Ah that's a bit tricky.
I'm working on a solution to that myself right now, because I want to use SG-shaft engines in HSP cars. I'm trying to put an Sh.12 in and hit 60mph! I think the easiest solution would be to custom-drill some engine mounts so that the engine sits a little further forward:

Or, you could turn one of these around, but that would move the engine 10mm forward - the HSP spacer is 6.5mm thick, and its flywheel a little thicker than average too, so that *might* work, especially since the Traxxas flywheel is pretty narrow.

Any "standard" flywheel with a tapered bore should fit too, along with a clutch nut, and then the clutch bearings go over the end. You'd have to use a torsion-spring & shoe clutch rather than the semicircles with a spring wrapped around them. I've seen clutch nuts that take an E-clip to use the 1-spring style, (there's one in my 'Fish) but they're less common. Considering the one in mine just broke, torsion is probably better.

This is the FC.18 engine I bought, it has the long-threaded crank native to HSP cars. It might be viable to put your engine in one of your Kyosho vehicles or something else designed for that shaft length. I'll let you know how the engine mount mods go on my end, I'd be happy to send you a couple if they work how I hope.

 

[gandalfnz]

Ah that's a bit tricky.
I'm working on a solution to that myself right now, because I want to use SG-shaft engines in HSP cars. I'm trying to put an Sh.12 in and hit 60mph! I think the easiest solution would be to custom-drill some engine mounts so that the engine sits a little further forward:

View attachment 163823
Or, you could turn one of these around, but that would move the engine 10mm forward - the HSP spacer is 6.5mm thick, and its flywheel a little thicker than average too, so that *might* work, especially since the Traxxas flywheel is pretty narrow.

Any "standard" flywheel with a tapered bore should fit too, along with a clutch nut, and then the clutch bearings go over the end. You'd have to use a torsion-spring & shoe clutch rather than the semicircles with a spring wrapped around them. I've seen clutch nuts that take an E-clip to use the 1-spring style, (there's one in my 'Fish) but they're less common. Considering the one in mine just broke, torsion is probably better.

This is the FC.18 engine I bought, it has the long-threaded crank native to HSP cars. It might be viable to put your engine in one of your Kyosho vehicles or something else designed for that shaft length. I'll let you know how the engine mount mods go on my end, I'd be happy to send you a couple if they work how I hope.

Ah man

We are thinking alike, before even I saw your response, I was thinking to drill and tap those screw holes in between the existing ones.....
It would be great to work on this together with you.

I got he clutch on now, with zero slop, too me a good couple of hours, to machine a piece that would prevent the screw that holds the bell from grabbing onto the bearing and thus stopping the bell from spinning. I ended up cutting a small piece of the old VS18 pilot shaft and then using that as an insert, if that makes sense.

I used traxxas flywheel, HSP clutch shoes, they are a bit apart, but nothing I can do about this, hopefully they wont grab too early.

Now I have 2 problems, that I noticed so far.
Engine mounts are hitting engine backplate and hence will need to be sorted, which we already discussed above.
Second issue is flywheel is touching the brake disk. I guess you could be right and I need a longer pilot shaft, which would leave the flywheel behind the brake disk.... I am not sure on this yet....

Here are a few photos on how I got the clutch assembly on....

To be hones, this is proving to be quite a challenge, I was expecting more of a drop in kinda job on this one.

 

[tudordewolf]

Now I have 2 problems, that I noticed so far.
Engine mounts are hitting engine backplate and hence will need to be sorted, which we already discussed above.
Second issue is flywheel is touching the brake disk. I guess you could be right and I need a longer pilot shaft, which would leave the flywheel behind the brake disk.... I am not sure on this yet....

Good to know the brake disk might be a sticking point... You could try a flywheel with a "step" before the clutch bell, like this, to clear the brake disk, or a super small-diameter flywheel no larger than the clutch bell, like this. I've amassed basically 1 of each from every brand and configuration:

 

[gandalfnz]

Good to know the brake disk might be a sticking point... You could try a flywheel with a "step" before the clutch bell, like this, to clear the brake disk, or a super small-diameter flywheel no larger than the clutch bell, like this. I've amassed basically 1 of each from every brand and configuration:

View attachment 163834

Hmmm

I just checked, I don't see a flywheel with a step making a difference, because its still going to rub against the brake disk, its not the bell that rubs against it, its the part with ridges...basically where its largest in diameter.

Also funny but if you see the HSP flywheels on my first photo, none of them have conical hole, just a straight one....
The ones you linked below are conical...

This is going to require some serious thinking, were you thinking of putting that force of the Fish?
Also, how long is the shaft on your Force, since you said it came with an extra long drive shaft? do you mean it has a different crankshaft, meaning longer? Sorry I am confused.

Thanks a lot!

 

[tudordewolf]

This is going to require some serious thinking, were you thinking of putting that force of the Fish?

I was thinking of putting it in the HSP Short course-truck or Rally Car. It has a shaft like the VX-18, with an included spacer. It would use a flywheel with a straight bore.

There's long threaded shaft, which you see on HSP and the VX-18, short threaded shaft, which is common Kyosho vehicles and uses a screw-on pilot shaft, and SG shaft, which uses a pilot nut to hold the flywheel on and has its own pilot shaft already built-in.

 

[gandalfnz]

I was thinking of putting it in the HSP Short course-truck or Rally Car. It has a shaft like the VX-18, with an included spacer. It would use a flywheel with a straight bore.

View attachment 163835

There's long threaded shaft, which you see on HSP and the VX-18, short threaded shaft, which is common Kyosho vehicles and uses a screw-on pilot shaft, and SG shaft, which uses a pilot nut to hold the flywheel on and has its own pilot shaft already built-in.

That a force engine, a different model perhaps, no logo to indicate as such...

I have assembled the car now, everything worked out well, except as I expected flywheel is rubbing on the brake disk.
I will proceed with the break in regardless and see how it goes.
Second concern is the clutch, not sure it will hold up and if it will engage properly.

I see that traxxas flywheel protrudes a few mm's at the back, I think if it weren't for that maybe it would not rub.
If there is a flywheel that has its back completely flat, it might work...

Can you confirm please if any of the flywheels you have, have a flat back?

Keep you posted...

 

[tudordewolf]

That a force engine, a different model perhaps, no logo to indicate as such...

Nice work with those engine mounts! Did you aim exactly in between the existing holes?

It came in a Force box -

Here's why I think that other flywheel would work:

It has clearance right where you'd need it. I don't think the rear profile of the flywheel matters so much as the front, since the clutch bell will always have to sit more or less in the same place in the end.

If you have access to a lathe or mini-lathe, you could even machine a tapered bore into a stock HSP flywheel; that's beyond my abilities at the moment.

 

[gandalfnz]

Nice work with those engine mounts! Did you aim exactly in between the existing holes?

It came in a Force box -
View attachment 163908

Here's why I think that other flywheel would work:

View attachment 163909
It has clearance right where you'd need it. I don't think the rear profile of the flywheel matters so much as the front, since the clutch bell will always have to sit more or less in the same place in the end.

If you have access to a lathe or mini-lathe, you could even machine a tapered bore into a stock HSP flywheel; that's beyond my abilities at the moment.

View attachment 163907

A mini lathe has been on my to buy list for a very long time now.

My force engine just came in a plain box... nothing fancy looking like that, its quite neat though, gives impression of a high quality product. It even specifies they used OS crankshaft, which is prob Japanese made.

I get your point in regards to the flywheel, where did you buy the low profile one from the photo above? Also do you think it will affect idle of the engine much, with flywheel being so small and light?

I will move onto break in, after looking at that brake disk more and more, it seems that flywheel will shave off max 1.5-2 mm's from it, and when it does I believe the car will still be able to brake fine.
Only one way to find out though.

I am more concerned about the clutch, and that in the end, I will end up changing the whole clutch assembly, including the Flywheel, shoes....etc

Oh and yes, those engine mounts worked out real good, about 0.5mm away from the engine backplate, which is perfect.
Yes, just drill a hole exactly in the middle of the existing ones.

 

[tudordewolf]

I get your point in regards to the flywheel, where did you buy the low profile one from the photo above? Also do you think it will affect idle of the engine much, with flywheel being so small and light?

Aliexpress, here. HSP Part #81040. It's the one they put in their 1/8th HSP cars with .21 or .28 big-block engines, so I think it should be alright for a .18. It weighs 16g, about the same as the stock HSP flywheel.

It's hit and miss whether engines I've bought come in branded boxes, I definitely like holding on to them when they're included. Plenty have come in plain packaging, too.

That's awesome to hear about the engine mounts, I purchased a mini drill press from Ali just to facilitate that exact operation.

 

[gandalfnz]

Aliexpress, here. HSP Part #81040. It's the one they put in their 1/8th HSP cars with .21 or .28 big-block engines, so I think it should be alright for a .18. It weighs 16g, about the same as the stock HSP flywheel.

It's hit and miss whether engines I've bought come in branded boxes, I definitely like holding on to them when they're included. Plenty have come in plain packaging, too.

That's awesome to hear about the engine mounts, I purchased a mini drill press from Ali just to facilitate that exact operation.

No need for a drill press, just a steady hand
I like boxed stuff, I try and keep the boxes in the attic, like when my savage 5.9 (older version) arrived boxed, it was huuuge, but I still wanted it shipped in its original box.

That flywheel will require different brake pads, and not only that, the pilot shaft will need to accommodate for those, which will affect the clutch bell?

Cheers

 

[tudordewolf]

That flywheel will require different brake pads, and not only that, the pilot shaft will need to accommodate for those, which will affect the clutch bell?

It'll need a 3-piece clutch and a different clutch nut, here's one pictured installed and with a single clutch shoe - the clutch bell fits over it perfectly.

 

[gandalfnz]

It'll need a 3-piece clutch and a different clutch nut, here's one pictured installed and with a single clutch shoe - the clutch bell fits over it perfectly.
View attachment 163926

Thank you for this.

Are they all clutch shoes and pilot nut also from aliexpress?

 

[tudordewolf]

Thank you for this.

Are they all clutch shoes and pilot nut also from aliexpress?

The clutch nut is, though Kyosho makes a tapered version (easier to install)

HSP makes a 3-piece spring / shoe set (listed with the clutch nut above), but I'm not impressed with the fit; the springs kinda stick out from the back of the clutch shoe. I never tried using it though, so it may be fine or wear in properly.

Kyosho makes a 3-piece set, "97053B", which fits very nicely. They even make different thicknesses of clutch spring to tune the engagement point.

Basically every nitro manufacturer has or once had a 3-piece clutch in their inventory and will have "sets" which are pretty much all interchangable. Some of Kyosho's 1/10ths use that design with 2 shoes instead of 3.

Getting the clutch springs on is pretty tough, you might want to look up a video, or get a clutch spring tool

 

[Defiant]

Ah that's a bit tricky.
I'm working on a solution to that myself right now, because I want to use SG-shaft engines in HSP cars. I'm trying to put an Sh.12 in and hit 60mph! I think the easiest solution would be to custom-drill some engine mounts so that the engine sits a little further forward:

View attachment 163823

Have you tried HPI engine mounts from the nitro drift? They have offset holes like that

 

[gandalfnz]

The clutch nut is, though Kyosho makes a tapered version (easier to install)

HSP makes a 3-piece spring / shoe set (listed with the clutch nut above), but I'm not impressed with the fit; the springs kinda stick out from the back of the clutch shoe. I never tried using it though, so it may be fine or wear in properly.

Kyosho makes a 3-piece set, "97053B", which fits very nicely. They even make different thicknesses of clutch spring to tune the engagement point.

Basically every nitro manufacturer has or once had a 3-piece clutch in their inventory and will have "sets" which are pretty much all interchangable. Some of Kyosho's 1/10ths use that design with 2 shoes instead of 3.

Getting the clutch springs on is pretty tough, you might want to look up a video, or get a clutch spring tool

I am familiar with this type of clutch, as all my savages utilize it.
Sometimes you have to bend those springs a little, then they sit right and do not protrude and rub on the bell.
Thank you I will look into this, prob buy that complete set from HSP from ali.

I did 4 tanks at idle today while keeping the temp just over 100C, engine worked really good.
Next is driving slowly on the road for another 4 tanks and leaning slightly, then I shall film it.

I am not a big fan of alu clutches, as they just scar the clutch bell, I like the plastic/carbon ones, or whatever material that is.

Just to confirm, this flywheel hole is tapered right?
https://www.aliexpress.us/item/1005002717711481.html?gatewayAdapt=4itemAdapt



Cheers

 

[tudordewolf]

Have you tried HPI engine mounts from the nitro drift? They have offset holes like that

Oh man, those would be perfect! Looks like this isn't the first time someone has solved this problem.

$40 is the cheapest I can find 'em for though, might have to stick with DIY'ing 'em.

I am not a big fan of alu clutches, as they just scar the clutch bell, I like the plastic/carbon ones, or whatever material that is.

Just to confirm, this flywheel hole is tapered right?

Yeah, I'm surprised by how long the synthetic ones last. Kyosho makes a hardened clutch shoe set, but from what I hear that just wears down the clutch bell instead.

That flywheel is tapered, yes! I should mention, since it was designed for a big block, it comes really close to the carb on some engines. I had to sand a bevel onto the back of mine to make it fit. I mounted it on a bare crankshaft, held it in a drill chuck, and hand-lathed it down.

It also fits slightly over the front of the engine, not rubbing anywhere, and I like that it protects the front bearing.

 

[gandalfnz]

Oh man, those would be perfect! Looks like this isn't the first time someone has solved this problem.

$40 is the cheapest I can find 'em for though, might have to stick with DIY'ing 'em.




Yeah, I'm surprised by how long the synthetic ones last. Kyosho makes a hardened clutch shoe set, but from what I hear that just wears down the clutch bell instead.

That flywheel is tapered, yes! I should mention, since it was designed for a big block, it comes really close to the carb on some engines. I had to sand a bevel onto the back of mine to make it fit. I mounted it on a bare crankshaft, held it in a drill chuck, and hand-lathed it down.

It also fits slightly over the front of the engine, not rubbing anywhere, and I like that it protects the front bearing.

View attachment 163934

Yes, that flywheel would definitely rub on the carb, I would say even more than yours.
That flywheel sorta sealing away the front bearing is not that great, as there is usually some oil seepage from it, and I always give mine a spray to clean it once in a while. I think it will just gunk up in there, unless that bearing perfectly sealed, but they usually aren't.
I am not sure I understand how you managed to bevel yours so nicely?

 

[tudordewolf]

I am not sure I understand how you managed to bevel yours so nicely?

I mounted it on a spare crankshaft, stuck the end of that crankshaft in a drill, and then used a sanding drum on a dremel to bevel the edge while simultaneously turning the flywheel with the drill. I'm hoping whatever oil leaks through the front bearing just gets flung out, at high rpm it shouldn't be too much of an issue