Restoration Project #8 - Huge Bundle of HPI, Kyosho and HSP.

[tudordewolf]

I hear you....
Had a few projects like this myself in the past, and yes, they are very time consuming and expensive to complete.

I wonder, how hard would it be to convert the nitro version to electric, would that be an easier route.
Removing the transmission and engine, and mounting the motor...etc.

There's a nitro -> electric motor mount, which would work with the single speed transmission, removing the brake components.

The electric versions just hold the receiver and ESC on with double sided tape, which may make the conversion easy enough if you stick with that (pun not intended). Just remove the front tray the way I cut mine, tape the receiver onto the steering servo, and the ESC in the spot where the fuel tank went. From there, you could probably use the radio tray as the battery compartment, (you've got about 30 x 35 x 110mm) or replace it entirely.

 

[gandalfnz]

There's a nitro -> electric motor mount, which would work with the single speed transmission, removing the brake components.

The electric versions just hold the receiver and ESC on with double sided tape, which may make the conversion easy enough if you stick with that (pun not intended). Just remove the front tray the way I cut mine, tape the receiver onto the steering servo, and the ESC in the spot where the fuel tank went. From there, you could probably use the radio tray as the battery compartment, (you've got about 30 x 35 x 110mm) or replace it entirely.

Thank you for sharing the motor mount, did not know it existed.

In terms or speed/gear ratio, where would the car be if just electric motor meshes with larger spur?

I mean to ask you also, I have never taken apart the HSP tranny, dont really understand how it works, I can see that both spurs are engaged at the same time, they spin together. Does that mean that one (larger spur) will disengage at high RPM's?

Cheer dude!

 

[tudordewolf]

In terms or speed/gear ratio, where would the car be if just electric motor meshes with larger spur?

One of the listings for the conversion mounts shows exactly what you describe, so it's definitely doable:

It might be a bit slow because it would be in "first gear" the whole time; the upshift from 1st to 2nd is a 40% jump in ratio. Electric motors + shifting transmissions have been attempted, the Porsche Taycan implements such a solution, but at the RC level I've heard that it's more detrimental than a benefit.

Concerning the 2-speed:
The first pinion gear is mounted on a one-way bearing, so it always turns the driveshaft at least as quickly as itself. The second gear is on a normal bearing and spins freely. The shift clutch is fixed to the driveshaft, and engages the second gear at a certain speed, at which point the one-way bearing allows the first gear to "freewheel", as you have intuited.

This means you'd have no braking through the electric motor, and you'd have to retain disk brake and the throttle servo just to work the brake. It would be kind of a wonky, inefficient solution, not that you get that much back regeneratively.

In my opinion, you really want the driveshaft and motor to have a fixed connection, with no clutches or one-way bearings in between. I found this listing for both the mount and a transmission for less than the single speed I originally listed. That one shows several configurations for the conversion. That one also offers a large variety of spur gears.

 

[gandalfnz]

One of the listings for the conversion mounts shows exactly what you describe, so it's definitely doable:
View attachment 153425
It might be a bit slow because it would be in "first gear" the whole time; the upshift from 1st to 2nd is a 40% jump in ratio. Electric motors + shifting transmissions have been attempted, the Porsche Taycan implements such a solution, but at the RC level I've heard that it's more detrimental than a benefit.

Concerning the 2-speed:
The first pinion gear is mounted on a one-way bearing, so it always turns the driveshaft at least as quickly as itself. The second gear is on a normal bearing and spins freely. The shift clutch is fixed to the driveshaft, and engages the second gear at a certain speed, at which point the one-way bearing allows the first gear to "freewheel", as you have intuited.

This means you'd have no braking through the electric motor, and you'd have to retain disk brake and the throttle servo just to work the brake. It would be kind of a wonky, inefficient solution, not that you get that much back regeneratively.

In my opinion, you really want the driveshaft and motor to have a fixed connection, with no clutches or one-way bearings in between. I found this listing for both the mount and a transmission for less than the single speed I originally listed. That one shows several configurations for the conversion. That one also offers a large variety of spur gears.

This has to be the most informative Flying Fish thread out there thanks to you.
Thank you for explaining the two speed ins and outs, now it all makes sense.
Going by what you linked from "juzi store", that's all that is needed for nitro to electric conversion, or at least it seems so.
Its much more cost effective and simpler to go this way, so I will be on a hunt for another cheap flying fish nitro.
What is the stock pinion on brushless Ffish? I will be receiving mine in a few days, so I will find out.
To make it faster, can buy some larger pinions from this guy on Aliexpress.

Oh wow, if you keep scrolling down on that listing, they even show photos of the "pivot ball" version conversion.
Nice!

Thanks

 

[tudordewolf]

What is the stock pinion on brushless Ffish?

On the brushed model it's a 26T, I haven't dismantled a brushless one (yet). I picked one up for about $50, and it's been more or less completely cannibalized by now, only the plastic chassis plate remains.

I should mention that juzi store doesn't combine shipping costs, so it's an extra couple dollars per item, while jz9193 does, so you only pay an extra $3 per order. Took me one or two orders to realize this... On the other hand, juzi has some things jz doesn't, and vice-versa.

I didn't expect to become an expert on the HSP platform, it's just something I'd always wanted to get into, so when I did I went all-in. A year ago I didn't own a single RC car!

 

[gandalfnz]

Ok, so first impressions are not so good...
I can honestly say that the V2 or the pivot ball version is miles better than this, the improvements are obvious, V2 is much more sturdy and robust.
It all feels wonky and loose on V1.
Car is also too slow, I am now on the fence whether to invest in it and make it faster, or just leave it for the kids to have fun with.
For some reason car pulls to the right when accelerating, and to the left when decelerating, its very hard to control....
The original motor starts 3300KV on the label, but I wonder how true that is, and is it more close to 2300KV?
Pinion gear count is already at 29, so that's the max it can have I believe.
This is a factory drift version, is that one any different than touring, in terms of speed/torque set up?

If I was to make it faster, what are my options.
3S lipo
pinion gear (already at max 29 tooth count)
spur gear (smaller maybe?)
change of ESC and Motor, to something more beefy such as "castle" and higher KV rating

Here are some pics of the car.
It did come with all, TX, RX, charger and 3.5 mAh batt and R35 body.
Cost me $70 USD, so not bad.

 

[tudordewolf]

I can honestly say that the V2 or the pivot ball version is miles better than this, the improvements are obvious, V2 is much more sturdy and robust.

Yeah, it leaves a lot to be desired in terms of... Everything. If you grab any wheel and wiggle it, it's got so much give.

I like the design of the diff cases a tiny bit more because they're better sealed, but that's it. I re-built mine with a bunch of M3 washers to mitigate play in the suspension, like where the rear lower arms connect to the hubs, and on top of the front hubs between the bushings, or else the e-clips holding the pin in scratch against the wheels, melting and accumulating chunks of plastic...

I also replaced the eyelets in the shock absorbers with just mini pivot balls screwed into the shock towers and arms, that tightened things up a bit too.

I'm still reasonably satisfied with my C-link flying fish, if only because I think of it as the most expendable one...

I'm so nitro-centric that I don't know I'll ever get into the brushless game, so my ability to speak to upgrades are limited and based on theory rather than experience. You seem to have the right idea.

Going to 3S should be an almost 50% improvement in performance right off the bat.

You could try to stuff a 4300KV motor in there, which may not survive 3S power; the listings I saw kind of recommended sticking with 2S for that. A 3900KV on 3S would get it moving for sure, but that'd cost almost as much as the car again, might as well save that effort for the nitro conversion.

Too bad they never applied the same lessons to their electric models, probably why they have a dubious reputation from people who've only tried that design from them.

 

[gandalfnz]

Yeah, it leaves a lot to be desired in terms of... Everything.

I like the design of the diff cases a tiny bit more because they're better sealed, but that's it. I re-built mine with a bunch of m3 washers to remove play in the suspension, like where the rear lower arms connect to the hub, and on top of the front hubs between the bushings, or else the e-clips holding the pin in scratch against the wheels, melting and accumulating chunks of plastic...

I'm so nitro-centric that I don't know I'll ever get into the brushless game, so my ability to speak to upgrades are limited and based on theory rather than experience. You seem to have the right idea.

Going to 3S should be an almost 50% improvement in performance right off the bat.

You could try to stuff a 4300KV motor in there, which may just survive 3S power.

Thanks for the tips.
I will need to make a plan, I think I will shelve it for now, and just let the kids enjoy it as is.
This car reminded me in the first 5 mins of driving it, why I love nitro so much. Dont want to get into this topic now, but the feeling just can't compare.
Will postpone upgrading this, as I am eyeing a Savage XL 5.9 ....

 

[gandalfnz]

Yeah, it leaves a lot to be desired in terms of... Everything. If you grab any wheel and wiggle it, it's got so much give.

I like the design of the diff cases a tiny bit more because they're better sealed, but that's it. I re-built mine with a bunch of M3 washers to mitigate play in the suspension, like where the rear lower arms connect to the hubs, and on top of the front hubs between the bushings, or else the e-clips holding the pin in scratch against the wheels, melting and accumulating chunks of plastic...

I also replaced the eyelets in the shock absorbers with just mini pivot balls screwed into the shock towers and arms, that tightened things up a bit too.

I'm still reasonably satisfied with my C-link flying fish, if only because I think of it as the most expendable one...

I'm so nitro-centric that I don't know I'll ever get into the brushless game, so my ability to speak to upgrades are limited and based on theory rather than experience. You seem to have the right idea.

Going to 3S should be an almost 50% improvement in performance right off the bat.

You could try to stuff a 4300KV motor in there, which may not survive 3S power; the listings I saw kind of recommended sticking with 2S for that. A 3900KV on 3S would get it moving for sure, but that'd cost almost as much as the car again, might as well save that effort for the nitro conversion.

Too bad they never applied the same lessons to their electric models, probably why they have a dubious reputation from people who've only tried that design from them.

Yep, it is very surprising that they decided to up the nitro model in terms of quality and reliability.
I guess we should be thankful for it, since every other company has done vice-versa.
We also own two electric Slash's 4x4 VXL Brushless, honestly these cars although great RC's, barely get any use at all. And, I mean like once a year, just our preference to go with nitro.
Personally I think whoever truly learns the ins and outs of nitro, will find electric unsatisfying, but each to their own.
Its just people that bash and trash nitro because learning curve is quite steep, and I understand their desire to just plug'n play.
I have decided not to invest money in this car, it will be awesome for kids to drive it alongside our nitros.

 

[tudordewolf]

Its just people that bash and trash nitro because learning curve is quite steep, and I understand their desire to just plug'n play.

It's funny, I don't mean to bash anyone's fun, but that's what makes nitro different to me than a souped-up toy. I mean, it is still a "toy" for playing with, but a completely different animal.

 

[gandalfnz]

Its funny, I have scraped and damaged the purple chevy body with bruhsless a lot.
Never used to happen with nitro...
Car is so quick on take off, its crazy

 

[gandalfnz]

Hey

I have another question for you regarding Ali orders.
I can see clearly both Juzi and JZ combine shipping on the same item, you can add multiple of the same item for a very small increase in shipping price.
But, whenever you add a different item to the cart, a full shipping on that item is additionally charged?
Is this the same for you, or am I doing something wrong?
This pretty much makes combined shipping useless, and no different than placing orders separately for each different item.

Thanks

 

[tudordewolf]

Hey

I have another question for you regarding Ali orders.
I can see clearly both Juzi and JZ combine shipping on the same item, you can add multiple of the same item for a very small increase in shipping price.
But, whenever you add a different item to the cart, a full shipping on that item is additionally charged?
Is this the same for you, or am I doing something wrong?
This pretty much makes combined shipping useless, and no different than placing orders separately for each different item.

Thanks

In my experience Juzi store doesn't combine shipping, jz9193 store does.

You have to make sure you've selected "AliExpress standard shipping" for each item from jz9193 store, and it should combine the shipping costs to just a single charge. For cheap items they may default to Caniao, which I am not sure if it combines or not

So if you add a small/cheap item which defaults to the very slightly cheaper Caniao shipping, and another item which defaults to the AliExpress shipping, it'll charge you for both. If you select AliExpress shipping for both items, your subtotal will go down, even though you're picking "more expensive" shipping on the cheaper item.

For example:

Although they display the shipping cost on each item, the total shipping is still $2.91

I'm not sure if they've changed it, but in my experience, Juzi store doesn't combine shipping across different items even if you chose the same shipping method for all of them, and their shipping costs might even increase with multiple of the same item.

 

[gandalfnz]

In my experience Juzi store doesn't combine shipping, jz9193 store does.

You have to make sure you've selected "AliExpress standard shipping" for each item from jz9193 store, and it should combine the shipping costs to just a single charge. For cheap items they may default to Caniao, which I am not sure if it combines or not

So if you add a small/cheap item which defaults to the very slightly cheaper Caniao shipping, and another item which defaults to the AliExpress shipping, it'll charge you for both. If you select AliExpress shipping for both items, your subtotal will go down, even though you're picking "more expensive" shipping on the cheaper item.

For example:
View attachment 153757

Although they display the shipping cost on each item, the total shipping is still $2.91

View attachment 153758

I'm not sure if they've changed it, but in my experience, Juzi store doesn't combine shipping across different items even if you chose the same shipping method for all of them, and their shipping costs might even increase with multiple of the same item.

You nailed it as always, all this time I was paying 3x the shipping fee, not realizing it needs all to be set to Ali standard shipping.

Thanks a lot!

 

[tudordewolf]

You nailed it as always, all this time I was paying 3x the shipping fee, not realizing it needs all to be set to Ali standard shipping.

Thanks a lot!

It definitely took me a few orders to figure that one out, glad I can save you trouble!

 

[gandalfnz]

It definitely took me a few orders to figure that one out, glad I can save you trouble!

Definitely electric is off to the side. Just won an auction for Savage XL 5.9.
Will post a restoration thread once its here.

Cheers

 

[gandalfnz]

@tudordewolf

Hey dude, hows it going.
Thought I'd send a message to a HSP expert regarding some issues I am having.

So today I decided to run the FFish, after replacing the fuel tank lid with aluminum one, and some other bits and pieces.
Car would not prime, turns out the new alu fuel cap does not seal properly, O ring is fine, I guess its just the way its seating, I ended up putting back the old plastic fuel cap back on, sealed right away....dont have any other o rings to try and get the aluminum one to work, but I will get to it eventually.

Anyway, the car stopped shifting after a few runs.
Can the tranny be removed without any additional disassembly?
I can see the metal pin and the arm is still there, so I am unsure at this stage why it wont shift.
Another question is, do you have any experience with the aluminum gearbox, is it any good and do you think it will be a worthy upgrade?
A friend of mine has two of these cars and they both do not shift, so I guess its another weakness of this model, and I am looking for a long term solution?

Thank you!

 

[gandalfnz]

So, it turns out the grub screw that locks the clutch onto the driveshaft has come loose.
Tightened it, applied some thread lock, could not wait, tested it, it shifted, came loose again.

I am not sure, if the little ball (as per HSP drawing) had fallen out, when I unscrewed the grub fully out, or it wasn't there to begin with.
I think I could feel a flat spot on the shaft, on which the grub locks onto, but as I said, I am not sure...
Its really hard to tell, I had to detect the flat spot by feel, then insert and tighten grub.
Applied thread lock again and will just leave it to dry, then test again tomorrow.

 

[tudordewolf]

Car would not prime, turns out the new alu fuel cap does not seal properly

Oops, I probably should've mentioned - the included black o-ring isn't that great, I'd recommend using the orange one from the original fuel cap.

I'd also recommend using the original silver "pressure fitting" instead of the black one they include to connect the pressure line, and if you can use a little silicone or an o-ring to seal that too, it also leaks a little. I know I talked about how much better they are than stock, but that's after you iron out the kinks, sorry I didn't include that in my recommendations.

I actually bought my own o-rings, the one to seal the tank cap is 23mm OD * 2.4mm, and the one for the fuel nipple is 4mmOD x 1mm, both in red silicone. It was under $5 from aliexpress for baggies of both.

...I also used some silicone between the fuel tank and the silver insert inside it that holds the o-ring.

I feel bad having recommended them without including all these caveats... also, I just bought myself some stainless steel m2.5x4mm screws because the included carbon steel ones look like they're rusting from the nitro. Things I've discovered since we last talked...

Can the tranny be removed without any additional disassembly?

Yes, if you've split the top deck the way we previously discussed in this thread, the only thing you need to remove is the front half of the top deck with the fuel tank, and leave the servos / radio tray / everything else in place. Re-seating the dogbones as you get the transmission in can be a little tight, but still was easier than dismantling the rear half.

Its really hard to tell, I had to detect the flat spot by feel, then insert and tighten grub.

The flat spots are in the same orientation along the entire shaft, so you can use the drive cups / flats on either end to align it correctly.

That little clutch piece can be a headache to diagnose / fix, I've found that pressing the insert on the side that drops in with a little tuning screwdriver to feel the resistance is a good intermediate test for whether it's working right or not.

Unrelatedly, I've been slowly dipping my toes more into the brushless scene, and I think I may have been too pessimistic about its potential last time we spoke - I've discovered a few more gears that I think would work, and come to understand power available in a brushless a little better. With a 3900kv motor on 3s and fat gearing, it could probably do 60 easily. I agree that the nitro->brushless conversion would be a better electric car than the electric version, primarily for the pivot ball suspension, but also because I'm pretty sure you could fit a longer motor than the brushed one accommodates.

I got my stock Flying Fish up to 47mph with those solid-axle diffs and its VX18, and my custom-built one up to 48mph on its .12 engine.

 

[gandalfnz]

Oops, I probably should've mentioned - the included black o-ring isn't that great, I'd recommend using the orange one from the original fuel cap.

I'd also recommend using the original silver "pressure fitting" instead of the black one they include to connect the pressure line, and if you can use a little silicone or an o-ring to seal that too, it also leaks a little. I know I talked about how much better they are than stock, but that's after you iron out the kinks, sorry I didn't include that in my recommendations.

I actually bought my own o-rings, the one to seal the tank cap is 23mm OD * 2.4mm, and the one for the fuel nipple is 4mmOD x 1mm, both in red silicone. It was under $5 from aliexpress for baggies of both.

...I also used some silicone between the fuel tank and the silver insert inside it that holds the o-ring.

I feel bad having recommended them without including all these caveats... also, I just bought myself some stainless steel m2.5x4mm screws because the included carbon steel ones look like they're rusting from the nitro. Things I've discovered since we last talked...



Yes, if you've split the top deck the way we previously discussed in this thread, the only thing you need to remove is the front half of the top deck with the fuel tank, and leave the servos / radio tray / everything else in place. Re-seating the dogbones as you get the transmission in can be a little tight, but still was easier than dismantling the rear half.




The flat spots are in the same orientation along the entire shaft, so you can use the drive cups / flats on either end to align it correctly.

That little clutch piece can be a headache to diagnose / fix, I've found that pressing the insert on the side that drops in with a little tuning screwdriver to feel the resistance is a good intermediate test for whether it's working right or not.

Unrelatedly, I've been slowly dipping my toes more into the brushless scene, and I think I may have been too pessimistic about its potential last time we spoke - I've discovered a few more gears that I think would work, and come to understand power available in a brushless a little better. With a 3900kv motor on 3s and fat gearing, it could probably do 60 easily. I agree that the nitro->brushless conversion would be a better electric car than the electric version, primarily for the pivot ball suspension, but also because I'm pretty sure you could fit a longer motor than the brushed one accommodates.

I got my stock Flying Fish up to 47mph with those solid-axle diffs and its VX18, and my custom-built one up to 48mph on its .12 engine.

Hey mate

Dont feel bad about not mentioning the issues, after all thats what the hobby is about, and I do enjoy fixing most of them.
I am just grateful that there is someone on here who I can discuss these particular cars with, your feedback has been greatly appreciated.
I wish I could talk to you in person.... haha

Let me test the car tomorrow and report back, I am not sure still even after looking at the cup grub screws, whether I hit the flat spot on the shaft.
I will grab a few of the O rings you linked above, although my alu tank caps did come with silicone/orange seals, but it seems they are not the right size.

I havent touched my brushless version since last we spoke, in fact I might just sell it, since its getting zero usage.

Did you end up getting the brushless variant yourself, or still working one your cousins one if I remember correctly?