Restoration Project #8 - Huge Bundle of HPI, Kyosho and HSP.

[Chubaka]

Well you know what? Its hard for me to believe this but I just purchased OS 11k carb, since you spoke of it so highly.
Found it for what I think is a very decent price at $60 usd inc shipping.
Lets see how my traxxas slash and Jato will run now.
Regarding the HSP, I am a bit disappointed, since VX18 ran beautifully, tuned well and idled. So far issues all around with the Force engine, mainly the carb but I will keep at it until its going well. I am waiting for parts from Ali, flywheel, clutch shoes....etc
I got a refund of $35 usd from them because carb is binding.

I am forever looking for a tune, that the car will almost instantly return to a nice idle after a WOT.
I used to believe this was purely to a carb design, but now I think engine plays a part as well?
In order to have tune like this, I have had best results from Kyosho slide carb that come off GXR15 engine.
I just dont like when you come off WOT and idle just hangs high for a few seconds, just doesn't sounds as good.

Care to share a link for the 11k? Interesting in hearing on the results.

 

[gandalfnz]

They may have done something similar with the KE15, I'm able to freely move the flywheel in both directions despite it having a pull start; it somehow only engages when you've pulling on the cord. Very convenient for setting the piston to BDC


That mirrors my own experience, at first when I caught onto the importance of a good carb I figured the engine was basically just a combustion chamber with an RPM limit, but now I'm starting to realize every little bit matters; the porting and compression that determine peak performance will also play a part in a steady idle.

Not sure about KE15, but I do know that they use a classic OWB pull start with 4 screws in each corner. GXR 15 is totally different.
To me it seems that the late models FW05 and early model FW06 all came with GXR15.

For me, its about how quickly it returns to idle from a WOT run, I used to think this is purely to do with the carb?
I think I might have issues fitting 11k into the Slash, as space is very limited.
Would you mind measure the 11k across for me, as per pic, I am wanting to see if it will be a good fit or not?



Thanks

Care to share a link for the 11k? Interesting in hearing on the results.

Sure, this is where I got it from.
Hope its legit!

rcjapan.net/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=80_413_455&products_id=12371

 

[tudordewolf]

Would you mind measure the 11k across for me, as per pic, I am wanting to see if it will be a good fit or not?

I get 42mm closed/idle, 47mm at WOT. I'd be cautiously optimistic based on those pictures; it kind of tapers down on the HSN side instead of having those blocky plugs. It also fits the stock Traxxas air filters.

 

[gandalfnz]

I get 42mm closed/idle, 47mm at WOT. I'd be cautiously optimistic based on those pictures; it kind of tapers down on the HSN side instead of having those blocky plugs. It also fits the stock Traxxas air filters.

View attachment 164379View attachment 164380

Thanks in that case I am screwed, stock carb is 39, there is no room in there for additional 3mm.

 

[tudordewolf]

Thanks in that case I am screwed, stock carb is 39, there is no room in there for additional 3mm.

Ah bummer. Good find on the carb though. I ordered something from them once and they reached out via email to tell me it would be a few weeks. I think they're legit but don't hold stock, they basically dropship from inside Japan. On my trip there last year I ordered a bunch of FW-06 parts from Kyosho for half what they would cost from the US site.

Well here's a sneak peak at my next 2 builds, with their engines haphazardly thrown on - a Flying Fish roller with an Sh.12 and the monster-truck version with an unknown Aliexpress "Hot Bodies" .20 (?) engine.

 

[gandalfnz]

Ah bummer. Good find on the carb though. I ordered something from them once and they reached out via email to tell me it would be a few weeks. I think they're legit but don't hold stock, they basically dropship from inside Japan. On my trip there last year I ordered a bunch of FW-06 parts from Kyosho for half what they would cost from the US site.

Well here's a sneak peak at my next 2 builds, with their engines haphazardly thrown on - a Flying Fish roller with an Sh.12 and the monster-truck version with an unknown Aliexpress "Hot Bodies" .20 (?) engine.

View attachment 164394

You should consider dropping in a .18 engine in that Fish, I would think .12 is a bit too small. When will they be tested on track?
I tried my Force Fish today and the clutch gave up, its basically a Frankenstein clutch, I am now going to wait for those HSP clutch shoes and flywheel to arrive, should be next week.

That SH carb is not that good imho, HSN is ok to tune, car really flies at top speed, but LSN is not easy to adjust.
With good carbs, you richen both, once HSN is good, start leaning LSN until take off is nice and crisp, but with this SH carb, I can never reach this point, and when I eventually do, its too lean, there is no clear indication when its at the sweet spot.

 

[tudordewolf]

You should consider dropping in a .18 engine in that Fish, I would think .12 is a bit too small. When will they be tested on track?

Testing / bashing to occur throughout the summer! I've been meaning to get more video posted already, but I've been sent home early by minor mechanical issues like grub screws and popped CVD's the last few times I went out.

I do have a .18, the same as you actually, the GS Racing R18 ST, which I was planning on putting in a fish, but I was pleasantly surprised by my first .12 so I want to see what I can accomplish with one. My fastest Fish so far, the 50mph one, is packing a .12 that redlines at 32k RPM, and was hitting that in under 5 seconds.

Using the "drag race" function of the speed meter I got .92 G's max acceleration, higher than the VX-18-powered fish with a lower top speed.

I'm hoping the SH .12 with its turbo plug, rear-exhaust design, and 41k advertised redline takes me to 60mph with the same gears. I'm also planning on using it as the basis for my performance-hybrid, so having some "room" for extra power is acceptable. Good tip about the carb, it does appear to be a "standard" SH slide carb, maybe I'll try the Kyosho one you recommend in it if it gives me trouble.

If I had more space, I might be able to go for a setup where a really powerful engine is gradually brought up to speed like the 100+ mph brushless builds, but for that I would try and stuff a .21, maybe the OS .21TM, into a Flying Fish, kind of like a poor-man's Shumacher Fusion, maybe with the fixed diffs and max transmission gearing, that could theoretically hit 75mph with 35k RPM from the engine.

I'm hoping the .20 powered monster truck has a bit more guts in the grass, the VX-18 powers it fine on concrete and gravel but struggles and overheats in grass more than an inch tall...

 

[gandalfnz]

Testing / bashing to occur throughout the summer! I've been meaning to get more video posted already, but I've been sent home early by minor mechanical issues like grub screws and popped CVD's the last few times I went out.

I do have a .18, the same as you actually, the GS Racing R18 ST, which I was planning on putting in a fish, but I was pleasantly surprised by my first .12 so I want to see what I can accomplish with one. My fastest Fish so far, the 50mph one, is packing a .12 that redlines at 32k RPM, and was hitting that in under 5 seconds.

Using the "drag race" function of the speed meter I got .92 G's max acceleration, higher than the VX-18-powered fish with a lower top speed.

View attachment 164436

I'm hoping the SH .12 with its turbo plug, rear-exhaust design, and 41k advertised redline takes me to 60mph with the same gears. I'm also planning on using it as the basis for my performance-hybrid, so having some "room" for extra power is acceptable. Good tip about the carb, it does appear to be a "standard" SH slide carb, maybe I'll try the Kyosho one you recommend in it if it gives me trouble.

If I had more space, I might be able to go for a setup where a really powerful engine is gradually brought up to speed like the 100+ mph brushless builds, but for that I would try and stuff a .21, maybe the OS .21TM, into a Flying Fish, kind of like a poor-man's Shumacher Fusion, maybe with the fixed diffs and max transmission gearing, that could theoretically hit 75mph with 35k RPM from the engine.

I'm hoping the .20 powered monster truck has a bit more guts in the grass, the VX-18 powers it fine on concrete and gravel but struggles and overheats in grass more than an inch tall...

Yea, but imagine what the Fish would do with a .18? Might as well put wings on it!
Where did you get the GS engine from?
I had my doubts about that engine, until I mated it with guess which carb?
Best return to idle of all my cars, sounds absolutely like a racing top end Nova engine the way it sounds and runs...
Excellent engine! Try that on the Fish
The car itself looks like a knock off of something like Kyosho....no idea.

 

[tudordewolf]

Yea, but imagine what the Fish would do with a .18? Might as well put wings on it!
Where did you get the GS engine from?
I had my doubts about that engine, until I mated it with guess which carb?
Best return to idle of all my cars, sounds absolutely like a racing top end Nova engine the way it sounds and runs...
Excellent engine! Try that on the Fish
The car itself looks like a knock off of something like Kyosho....no idea.

View attachment 164437

View attachment 164438

View attachment 164439

I got mine off this eBay listing, they seem to have a good number in stock. Good to hear it's a powerhouse. Might even have to call it a "Flying" Fish

I've also got HSP's 1/10th nitro short course truck, buggy, and rally car on my shelf all with VX18's waiting to be upgraded out. They're all bit heavier and have larger diameter wheels, so I think they would benefit most from the extra power.

I might put the GS18 in the SCT, that red-headed force engine I posted earlier in the rally car, and an Sh.18 in the buggy. It would also be fun to put the TRX 3,3 in the SCT instead as a kind of knockoff slash, but I like it as an "HSP-Maxx" for now.

 

[gandalfnz]

I got mine off this eBay listing, they seem to have a good number in stock. Good to hear it's a powerhouse. Might even have to call it a "Flying" Fish

I've also got HSP's 1/10th nitro short course truck, buggy, and rally car on my shelf all with VX18's waiting to be upgraded out. They're all bit heavier and have larger diameter wheels, so I think they would benefit most from the extra power.

I might put the GS18 in the SCT, that red-headed force engine I posted earlier in the rally car, and an Sh.18 in the buggy. It would also be fun to put the TRX 3,3 in the SCT instead as a kind of knockoff slash, but I like it as an "HSP-Maxx" for now.

Man you have so many projects, engines...cars, I always lose track and have to re-ask the question a few weeks later... haha

 

[tudordewolf]

Man you have so many projects, engines...cars, I always lose track and have to re-ask the question a few weeks later... haha

Guilty as charged...

I tell myself it's so I always have something to work on, and always something ready to bash, even when I'm waiting on parts or hit a stopping point on something else.

Part of it comes from hitting a point in a project where I need to make a choice between two designs and can't choose; instead I just fork the project into 2 vehicles exploring both options.

 

[gandalfnz]

Guilty as charged...

I tell myself it's so I always have something to work on, and always something ready to bash, even when I'm waiting on parts or hit a stopping point on something else.

Part of it comes from hitting a point in a project where I need to make a choice between two designs and can't choose; instead I just fork the project into 2 vehicles exploring both options.

Same here, since all my RC's were working, I realized somethin is wrong, and I had nothing to repair/fix/restore.
Hence I decide to upgrade my FFish with a Force engine, and now having all sorts of issues, which is just what I wanted .....

 

[gandalfnz]

@tudordewolf

Hey HSP buddy, this just got delivered yesterday, paid $40 USD inc shipping!!!
Seems to be in decent condition, one of the front shocks is bent, as they crashed it, nothing broken on it though.
HSN was clogged, cleaned it it fired right up, but couldn't do any more testing due to being late at night.
I purchased this solely for passing it onto a mate, who wanted a nitro RC car, but he might not be interested as RX is busted.
Now I am thinking it will be a perfect basher for my boys, to practice on before they move onto a Savage.
A bit of a shame its not the pivot ball suspension version, but hey for the price, can't complain.
Suspension is terrible on these, feels like there is zero oil in the shocks, prob there is none actually.
The way I see it, not been used a lot, bottom of the chassis no scratched, air filter clean, tyres not worn, HSN and LSN needles came being on factory settings, engine cooling head no scratches, body in very good condition.

 

[tudordewolf]

Nice find! I had one like it which became the basis of an ongoing pivot-ball conversion and a brushless truck using the C-link sets.

If nothing else, I'd suggest replacing the stock 16T with a 14T clutch bell to give it a little more torque at the wheels and take some load off the engine, but even stock it's nice.
I clocked mine at 31mph unmodified, so it's pretty fast, and the 14T would only bring that down to ~27mph while improving torque characteristics by over 10%.

I worked out the transmission to be the same if it were a single 72T gear, pretty good reduction. Too bad it's not a 2-speed though, redcat built one kind of like Traxxas's which had a single input gear so you could tune the ratios with single-gear clutch bells and still have a 2-speed, the best of both worlds.

 

[gandalfnz]

Nice find! I had one like it which became the basis of an ongoing pivot-ball conversion and a brushless truck using the C-link sets.

If nothing else, I'd suggest replacing the stock 16T with a 14T clutch bell to give it a little more torque at the wheels and take some load off the engine, but even stock it's nice.
I clocked mine at 31mph unmodified, so it's pretty fast, and the 14T would only bring that down to ~27mph while improving torque characteristics by over 10%.

I worked out the transmission to be the same if it were a single 72T gear, pretty good reduction. Too bad it's not a 2-speed though, redcat built one kind of like Traxxas's which had a single input gear so you could tune the ratios with single-gear clutch bells and still have a 2-speed, the best of both worlds.

I am trying very had to resist on upgrading this one, just the thought of it having bushings instead of wheel bearings makes me.....
But, I think I will just leave it as it for the kids to trash.
I see your point with 14T clutch bell, if I have one I will def throw it in, since it will be an off-road car.
Is that redcat GBox a direct fit for this truck?

 

[tudordewolf]

I am trying very had to resist on upgrading this one, just the thought of it having bushings instead of wheel bearings makes me.....

Yeah, I can see where you're coming from- and after a little running in they worsen the already-loose suspension play.

I can say, having the pivot-ball version in front of me, that the improvement over the C-link one is equally profound as in its Fish cousin.

Is that redcat GBox a direct fit for this truck?

Unfortunately not, it's from their 1/8th SCT and I don't think it's even HSP. Could probably be modded in but it'd take some work.

 

[gandalfnz]

Yeah, I can see where you're coming from- and after a little running in they worsen the already-loose suspension play.

I can say, having the pivot-ball version in front of me, that the improvement over the C-link one is equally profound as in its Fish cousin.




Unfortunately not, it's from their 1/8th SCT and I don't think it's even HSP. Could probably be modded in but it'd take some work.

Ok, I will pass then, not keen on investing time, effort and money into modifying this.
I thought so, the pivot ball version is miles ahead or C link.
C link is just too wonky and weak, the plastics it seems.

 

[tudordewolf]

Ok, I will pass then, not keen on investing time, effort and money into modifying this.
I thought so, the pivot ball version is miles ahead or C link.
C link is just too wonky and weak, the plastics it seems.

Yeah, it's a real head-scratcher that they never applied that upgrade to their electric lineup, it'd be such a big upgrade and they have all the parts already designed...

 

[gandalfnz]

The parts arrived. Should have waited for them in the first place, seems like with this type of flywheel the brake disk will not rub, so there was no need to trim it, luckily I purchased a steel one.

The way that clutch shoes springs protruded at the top was terrible, that would rub on the bell right away, and eventually break.
Factory quality of those is crap, but after a bit of adjusting and bending, I got them to sit perfectly.
I still think those groves in the clutch shoes should be a bit deeper as well, was thinking of using the Dremel to do that, but don't have the right bit for it.
Do the kyosho ones have a deeper spring groove?
You are right, these springs were so tight, it was really an effort to put those shoes onto the flywheel and lock them onto the pilot nut.
They are so tight, that I felt like I needed to make it just a tad loose, so I pulled on the clutch shoes a bit after mounting them, just to slacken those springs, hopefully I didn't do it too much....otherwise I feel like the clutch would engage too late, like on HPI RS4, makes shifting sound weird.
I will go ahead an order another 10 sets of clutch shoes from JZ.
And finally at the end, the front clutch bearing now sits below the top of the pilot shaft, which is always tricky to solve, I am thinking of cutting a piece of the VX18 pilot nut, and using that, as per last photo?
One more thing, I am pretty sure, I installed the pilot nut the wrong way around, but clutch shoes spring just sits better this way?
What do you think?

Thanks

Just had a quick look, Kyosho counterparts seem to have that spring groove much much deeper, such a stupid mistake to make, plenty of meat on the shoe, typical HSP standard of quality.
Do you have any experience with a Dremel, I think I may have found a good way of cutting a deeper groove into the clutch shoe, by just using a dremel cutting disk, I may give this a try once another batch of clutch shoes arrive.

 

[tudordewolf]

The parts arrived. Should have waited for them in the first place, seems like with this type of flywheel the brake disk will not rub, so there was no need to trim it, luckily I purchased a steel one.

The way that clutch shoes springs protruded at the top was terrible, that would rub on the bell right away, and eventually break.
Factory quality of those is crap, but after a bit of adjusting and bending, I got them to sit perfectly.
I still think those groves in the clutch shoes should be a bit deeper as well, was thinking of using the Dremel to do that, but don't have the right bit for it.
Do the kyosho ones have a deeper spring groove?
You are right, these springs were so tight, it was really an effort to put those shoes onto the flywheel and lock them onto the pilot nut.
They are so tight, that I felt like I needed to make it just a tad loose, so I pulled on the clutch shoes a bit after mounting them, just to slacken those springs, hopefully I didn't do it too much....otherwise I feel like the clutch would engage too late, like on HPI RS4, makes shifting sound weird.
I will go ahead an order another 10 sets of clutch shoes from JZ.
And finally at the end, the front clutch bearing now sits below the top of the pilot shaft, which is always tricky to solve, I am thinking of cutting a piece of the VX18 pilot nut, and using that, as per last photo?
One more thing, I am pretty sure, I installed the pilot nut the wrong way around, but clutch shoes spring just sits better this way?
What do you think?

Thanks

It's funny how parallel some of our projects / solutions run. I just assembled the same clutch shoes and was going to tell you I found a way to make the springs fit, I just put the whole spring in the jaws of a pair of pliers and squeezed it to put more bend in the main "finger" that holds the clutch shoe, now it lies flat.

Like you, I found them nearly impossible to apply even with a clutch tool. I stuck a screw through the clutch shoe and spring and used the same pliers to move the "leg" a bit further back.

The intended orientation for the clutch nut is with the groove further away from the engine, it looks like you may have done that already. Kyosho's tapered clutch nut is meant to make installation easier, though in my experience it only helps a little.

I think those shoulder bolts from my other Fish build, way back would be the perfect solution to your shaft-end/bearing issue. I'll probably wind up using another couple myself in these builds.

M3 thread, 5mm long, 5mm diameter shoulder x 5mm long.

I've got a dozen, I'll mail you a few if you have trouble finding them locally.

I've thought of dremeling a deeper groove, for the 2-piece clutches too, because I've noticed the outside of that spring starting to wear while the shoes still had plenty of "meat" on them.

I would want to make some sort of jig to get the depth right and also not widen the grooves by mistake, and then also weigh the shoes afterward to within .01g to avoid imbalance.

I wonder if at high-enough RPM's, those "wraparound" style springs might actually lift out of their groove and stretch to the inner diameter of the clutch bell as a result of the centripetal force, potentially snapping them - I had one recently fail and it's encouraging me to try and move away from the "semicircle" style clutches entirely. Kyosho uses 2x shoes from a 3-shoe set on their FW-06, pretty effective in my opinion.

Edit: I just worked out that at 35k RPM, there's 13,000 G's of outwards force on the clutch shoes; a 2 gram shoe experiences 60lbs of pull! (sorry for the metric/imperial mashup) Those wraparound 2-piece clutches are probably fine below 30k RPM, but over that I want the spring & shoe type.

The Kyosho clutch shoes do have a deeper groove, and their springs are perfectly contoured to them from the factory. The non-hardened set includes springs, the hardened one makes you buy the springs separately.

Since some of my clutch bells are the last of their stock or otherwise irreplaceable, I might run only teflon/composite shoes in them rather than aluminum to try and maximize their life even if I have to rebuild the clutch more often.