Posted at that "other" place... No Pressure Line Necessary!

[kx250ryder]

Derek's points have made sense to me since page 1 of this thread(and I never read the article). By removing the pressure line, you add low end response, remove some of the midrange hit, and lower top end revs slightly.

Because they (XRC) wrote this article, another company has decided to create a product that both gives a "no pressure line" effect at low RPM (to gain more bottom end), and a "pressure line installed/richened HSN" effect at high RPM (to gain horsepower on top and increased revs).

My guess is that the device does one of 3 things to decide when to adjust fuel pressure to get more peak power:

1.) Monitors engine RPMs via a sensor on the flyhweel or clutch bell
2.) Monitors servo position to check for full throttle
3.) Monitors exhaust gasses for increased pressure

It probably uses some sort of valve with variable opening, by closing it off at low RPMs, you get the "no pressure line" boost to bottom end power. At mid-top RPMs it probably opens up allowing pressure through or perhaps somehow forces addtional pressure beyond what is normal (such as a battery powered fan or fuel pump).

 

[Got Nitro?]

Alright so my question is about this,Will the engine lean out on the top end? obviouslly you have to adjust the needles,but will the carb really pull enough gas to make it run correct when your revving? A graph may show how it works and where it works best at,but is this going to affect bashing for some people? I can understand wanting to rev and have a linear power band for racing,make's a lot of sense to me. but how long was this theory actually tested,if it works fine I'm going to try it when i get my model up and going but I'm really not wanting to toast my engine.

 

[Lessen]

you know, I think I may have misunderstood...

derek, when you theorized that the device could possibly bring revs to 49k from 42k. Was that based on 42k being maxx RPM WITHOUT the pressure line or normal operation? I assumed the 42k was based on using a pressure line and best tuning for top speed.

 

[Monkey Wrench]

I got it! It's a super charger, isn't it?

 

[digger]

Damn, I thought this was going to be an interesting post....

All I'm getting so far:

We are working on a device.
WTF?​

So we are working on a "device." Who cares?
I'll be able to leave the pressure line off. So what? If I was worried about buying fuel tubing, why did I get in the hobby?
Why am I leaving that line off because there is a top secret device out there that I can't buy and you can't tell me how it works.

Is this device going to be so top secret that the engine isn't going to know it is supposed to have more power?


I know what it is.....
One of those 1/2" copper pipe, tuned mufflers that you see on ebay.
Look ma, no pressure fittings.

 

[RatzoRC]

Damn, I thought this was going to be an interesting post....

All I'm getting so far:

We are working on a device.
WTF?​

So we are working on a "device." Who cares?
I'll be able to leave the pressure line off. So what? If I was worried about buying fuel tubing, why did I get in the hobby?
Why am I leaving that line off because there is a top secret device out there that I can't buy and you can't tell me how it works.

Is this device going to be so top secret that the engine isn't going to know it is supposed to have more power?


I know what it is.....
One of those 1/2" copper pipe, tuned mufflers that you see on ebay.
Look ma, no pressure fittings.

If everyone in the hobby thought like you, we would still be pulling a Matchbox car with a string.
It might be something that will change things in the future on how we run our cars.
Or, it might not.
Have an open mind. The earth isn't flat anymore.

 

[WoodiE]

Derek's points have made sense to me since page 1 of this thread(and I never read the article). By removing the pressure line, you add low end response, remove some of the midrange hit, and lower top end revs slightly.

Well that's what I thought too, and I also commented that there was no really huge effect either way. Yes without a line you get slightly more bottom end, however the article also goes to say that this would probably be only useful on 2WD ST - thus I don't think there is a huge advantage of doing this.

At any rate after posting just this a few pages back Derek chimes in and says I'm not looking at it right only to then post he can't help as he doesn't know what I'm looking for. It's like a broken record around and around we go guys.

Looking at the article and the pretty graph that XRC has posted you get slightly more bottom end, and it's probably only going to help on 2WD stadium trucks - they also only tested this on a .12 engine... am I missing anything?



-Michael

 

[Southern]

What is it?

It's a fuel pump. It's not as big a secret as is being made. More than one variation of it has been in tested at times.

Some of the designs have not been ultra reliable or cost effective to this point and reliabilility and cost is being addressed. (Don't know about the particular company "Derek" is panting about, though - there is more than one company that has tried this.)

 

[robmob]

I wonder if the great cooperdillon will incorporate it into one of his customs.

 

[ZANDOR]

I wonder if the great cooperdillon will incorporate it into one of his customs.

Well If he does I will be sure to buy one of his customs!

 

[olds97_lss]

I don't think he would incorporate anything that actually functions...

 

[Monkey Wrench]

I wonder if the great cooperdillon will incorporate it into one of his customs.

Probably, but he'd claim he invented it because he is the Great CooperDillon!

 

[DerekB]

you know, I think I may have misunderstood...

derek, when you theorized that the device could possibly bring revs to 49k from 42k. Was that based on 42k being maxx RPM WITHOUT the pressure line or normal operation? I assumed the 42k was based on using a pressure line and best tuning for top speed.

There's no theory behind it.

The engine tested with the "device" was tested before under normal conditions. Pressure line attached tuned correct. For example it reved to 42,000 rrpm. When the "device" (not a fuel pump) was installed the engine reved to 49,000 rpm and have the advantage of the low end NOT having pressure.

Damn, I thought this was going to be an interesting post....

All I'm getting so far:

We are working on a device.
WTF?​

So we are working on a "device." Who cares?
I'll be able to leave the pressure line off. So what? If I was worried about buying fuel tubing, why did I get in the hobby?
Why am I leaving that line off because there is a top secret device out there that I can't buy and you can't tell me how it works.

Is this device going to be so top secret that the engine isn't going to know it is supposed to have more power?


I know what it is.....
One of those 1/2" copper pipe, tuned mufflers that you see on ebay.
Look ma, no pressure fittings.

Thanks for a awesome post and contributing to nothing. I've pretty much explained just about everything about the article and the questions posted here.

WE (XRC) are not testing any device. A COMPANY THAT SAW THE RESULTS started testing something that will work with both methods of pressure and no pressure to make more power and rev higher.

If you came just to join the arguement of not actually reading what was posted and harp on me not giving out product secrets then welcome to the club.

Well that's what I thought too, and I also commented that there was no really huge effect either way. Yes without a line you get slightly more bottom end, however the article also goes to say that this would probably be only useful on 2WD ST - thus I don't think there is a huge advantage of doing this.

At any rate after posting just this a few pages back Derek chimes in and says I'm not looking at it right only to then post he can't help as he doesn't know what I'm looking for. It's like a broken record around and around we go guys.

Looking at the article and the pretty graph that XRC has posted you get slightly more bottom end, and it's probably only going to help on 2WD stadium trucks - they also only tested this on a .12 engine... am I missing anything?



-Michael

Man you just want to not listen or understand anything. Being tested on a .21 means nothing. 1/8 scale racers used this all the time. IT GIVES ANY NITRO ENGINE MORE PUNCH ON THE BOTTOM END. It's really simple, but you seem to either not want to understand, or just being thickheaded to just argue with me despite the facts.

If you can't look at a graph an see an advantage I can't help you. I never said this was a thing that every person, monkey and frog should do.

I can say that there are a few people here that seem to understand and can actually discuss this technique without focusing on things that weren't in the article.

The sum of the article.

1. Removing the pressure line (per article) and richening the engine will result in more power down low and more of a linear power delivery.

2. Similar power up to to pressure, but slightly less and at lower RPM. Difference in negligable to most.

3. This can be used on ALL engine for a similar result.

4. This has been used by pro racers for years.

6. THis is not something that means you should run out and do this since you may be happy with the performance or not car if you get 10% more power out of a turn.


From our testing of this principal a manufacturer is developing a simple "device" that will take advantage of both pressure and no pressure line and could result in more RPM and power from the engine. It is currently ROAR legal and some drivers will be trying this at the ROAR nats. This is NOT something the magazine is testing or will be the one to tell what it is. If you can't see a huge advantage it's probably because there isn't one, but there is a difference in the power and delivery.


Buono out.

 

[Da Hellion]

interesting but

Please don't take this wrong Derek I am all for new ideas on more power but a few notes: (1) The carb itself has nothing to do with suction.That comes from the engine . Intake ports open piston pulling vacuum (2)A Dyno can not tell if the engine is running lean or rich (3) Weed wackers and lawn mowers do not have pressure lines on them wich you stated but failed to mention that both have diaphragm type fuel pumps eliminating the need for pressure lines and it's very rare to see a 2 stroke lawn mower .The burn rate is a lot slower and so is the RPM range. And last I don't know of any Nitro engine designs to provide cooling of a engine that gets near the 50000 RPM range which that in itself would throw the engine into a lean burn. not to mention it passed it's power band .IE a engine that screams 50000 RPM would have less power then a engine at 42000 at the peak of it's power band OK that said I have not seen the magazine and would like too! But for right now guys it's probley not a good idea to lose your pressure lines

 

[Lessen]

There's no theory behind it.

Oh ok, sorry. I only stated it like that because I wasn't' sure if that's what the manufacturing company was saying might be possible or if that's what they actually got. I didn't want to say you said something that you didn't (false info).

The engine tested with the "device" was tested before under normal conditions. Pressure line attached tuned correct. For example it reved to 42,000 rrpm. When the "device" (not a fuel pump) was installed the engine reved to 49,000 rpm and have the advantage of the low end NOT having pressure.

I assume the testing was all done w/o load across the board?

Well, it sounds pretty darn promissing to me. I'd like to hear what kind of top speed difference there would be if they put the test engine in a vehicle. If they can see even a couple mph more with a load I'd say that would be a huge advantage. Have they mentioned anything about engine reliability?

I can't understand it without more info but it sounds pretty interesting to me, Thanks man!

 

[Monkey Wrench]

I'd like to throw out one suggestion regarding all of this, so take it for what it's worth.

Since there is no "device" on the market yet, and since Derek made the mistake (yes Derek, mistake) of mentioning it but is unable to provide any other details ABOUT THE DEVICE ITSELF (versus, what it will do) I say the subject be dropped, merely to prevent this from escalating into something other than the "device".

Additionally, Derek, and take this for what it's worth, I can appreciate the frustration you might be experiencing with some of the responses to this thread, but the very reason I chose this forum over some of the others is precisely because a lot of the individuals on this board are capable of thought, reason, logic and healthy debate rather than accepting anything written in a magazine as manna from heaven. I personally do not believe anyone is trying to personally call you out on this article, but at the same time, your assumption that the article is as detailed as you claim it to be is incorrect. Couple that with your introduction of this "device" and you have to expect some sort of questioning behind it. Looking over several of your posts, you have created a circular and sometime contradictory argument, which is bound to be noticed and brought to your attention (I speak from personal experience.)

Finally, and again, merely food for thought, keep in mind that there are many members on this forum that are paying subscribers to XRC. I do not mean for that to be that you have to necessarily watch what you say, but as you've alluded to many times in your own posts, what gets "said" on the Internet can be inferred many different ways. That's a two way street, and while you do say you hope more folks subscribe to your publication, questioning one's ability to understand something or not accepting that something presented is not going to be questioned is either arrogant or delusional.

I hope you do not take these comments as personal, Derek, as they are not intended to be anything but insights and opinions on your presentation, not the subject itself. The article itself was interesting and you're right, never said or suggested one should, "go do this now." If one is up for it, give it a shot, if not, no big deal.

I, as are the others, am interested in seeing and learning more about this "device" when either more information is released or on the market. It may not apply to me personally, but it'll be interesting to see what comes of it.

Thanks for visiting our little corner of the web and sharing what you know. I for one, appreciate it!

-Ellery

 

[Southern]

I misspoke, when I called it a fuel "pump". It's technically a "regulator".

 

[DerekB]

Please don't take this wrong Derek I am all for new ideas on more power but a few notes: (1) The carb itself has nothing to do with suction.That comes from the engine . Intake ports open piston pulling vacuum (2)A Dyno can not tell if the engine is running lean or rich (3) Weed wackers and lawn mowers do not have pressure lines on them wich you stated but failed to mention that both have diaphragm type fuel pumps eliminating the need for pressure lines and it's very rare to see a 2 stroke lawn mower .The burn rate is a lot slower and so is the RPM range. And last I don't know of any Nitro engine designs to provide cooling of a engine that gets near the 50000 RPM range which that in itself would throw the engine into a lean burn. not to mention it passed it's power band .IE a engine that screams 50000 RPM would have less power then a engine at 42000 at the peak of it's power band OK that said I have not seen the magazine and would like too! But for right now guys it's probley not a good idea to lose your pressure lines

Actually you are correct, the dyno cannot tell anything, but me and the other people that have been using it and runing nitro for years can tell. I can tell you by looking at the graph what is lean or rich, or if the pipe is a problem.

I don't mind talking about the article or arguing the truth on the internet or magazine, but arguing is not actually discussing reasons or theory behind tuning.

Again, this is an advanced technique used by pro racers for years and we tested to see if it actually did what they said. The article wasn't really going into discussing it for the novice tuners. Sorry.

 

[Da Hellion]

Derek Because I say it won't work means it wont .I am never wrong!!!! How stupid does that sound? OK my point is if ten people tell you that a idea wont work it might discourage you from trying and that's just sad! Keep at it !!!!!!

 

[Monkey Wrench]

Again, this is an advanced technique used by pro racers for years and we tested to see if it actually did what they said. The article wasn't really going into discussing it for the novice tuners. Sorry.

How is this technique advanced? You're yanking the pressure line and richening it a bit. I hardly consider that "advanced".