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Lipo questions

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matc

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Hi guys, I'm new here and contempling buying an electric RC. I used to have a nitro in the past but it was too time consuming and noisy so electric might be better for me. However, I just can't understand why it seems so darn complicated to charge lithium batteries. I've read you need a special bag, that you need to store them at xx% of charge and that they could catch on fire like at any time etc. Nimh on the other hand are not perfect either, you need to fully decharge them and store them at full charge.

Why is it that my laptop, cellphone, makita 18v batteries and flashlights, which all use lithium are simply plug and play, no fuss at all, no fireproof bag ? I'm really curious because this is what's keeping me from buying an electric RC.
 
well there's a lot of reasons for this one being people forget they're charging a battery and forget to check up on it which is a cause for disaster and also some people charge it with too much amps which again is a cause for disaster. You charge the lipo based on amount of amps and i personally dont store my lipo's when i charge them i just really keep an eye on them and try my best to do it safely. Theres so much good videos on youtube that will explain this better than i can i suggest you watch some of those if you haven't
 
thanks ! I've read the whole page but still doesn't answer my question...why is it that our power tools/laptop lithium batteries are so simple to use compared to the ones in rc ? Nobody check them while charging, no fire bag, no storage charging etc.
 
Not as high drain as RCs? I don't know.

I was super cautious when first started getting into LiPo batteries back in 2010. In fact, I still have and use two of the four first LiPos that I bought. I only charged my packs at 1C charge rates and always had them put away at storage voltage. For the past few years I've been charging my LiPo batteries (not my transmitter packs) at 2C charge rates while charging takes place outside the house, on the driveway... couldn't be happier. Nineteen to thirty-five minutes and I'm up and running. Two chargers...non stop all day fun.
 
all batteries can be a danger. but as long as you take some precaution then your safe..a lipo bag or lipo safe is good .its been years that I've heard of a lipo going up without some abuse b4..(seen a guy that was a racer that ran across crc carpet pulled his body off and heard a snap from static electricity and then heard the dreaded hissss he went running 50 feet out a open door to see his rc going up in smoke)modern lipos are very safe but A123 or liFe are way safer but don't give the users the voltage one wants. I like doing it by voltage not %..store at 3.7 volts a cell..charge at less than 5c unless your a racer then your looking for micro ohms and charging at high C rate then doing higher amp discharges can bring them do to what one want less than 3 micro ohms. Nixx batts are still short lived batts and just don't have the C rate we as hobbyist like..if you charge a nixx bat then you have a matter of a few minutes less is best to get the longest run time you can..(as they self discharge quickly.so it all boils down to what the user wants...
 
Most tools/consumer grade lithium devices come with comparably very low current chargers. The devices don't draw near the amperage we draw in RC. Many also run lithium-ion cylindrical cells, which by nature are more durable than lithium-polymer cells we use for RC, but they aren't as energy dense, so they require more space per Mah. My M12 milwaukee packs have 18650 cells in them as do all my dell laptops. They have circuitry in them to monitor/prevent over charging and over discharging, either in the packs themselves or in the devices that use them, or both. The chargers that charge them range from 1/1.5Amp (dremel 12v, milwaukee 12v) to 5Amp (laptop). The packs are also wired so they are always balance charged. The user can't charge them any other way.

With the cells used for RC, there is zero circuit protection in the packs themselves. They rely on the charger to charge properly, the esc to stop discharging when at a certain point and the user to know how to plug them in and the limits the individual packs are capable of.

Lithium-polymer cells don't like resting at full or empty. It's just how they are chemically designed. When they sit on a shelf at full charge, it causes the internal resistance to prematurely go up. When IR goes up, this is effectively "wear" on the cells. The higher it goes, the less output they can provide efficiently.

They also self discharge due to the IR. Even when new, there is still some IR in them, so they will self discharge, but slowly. If they are left fully depleted (<2.8V), they run the risk of going below a safe threshold where they damage themselves. This is why whenever your not using a lipo, they should be put to 50% charge (storage charge, 3.8-3.85v per cell) and checked every month or so they aren't used to make sure the voltage of each cell doesn't go too far down. If it does, then you need to put them on the charger back to storage charge.

I don't know why, but many RC chargers will allow you to charge a lipo without balancing it. Cells within a pack, or many packs, don't charge or deplete at the exact same rate. When you use a pack, if you check the voltage at the end of the run, they will vary. With lipo's, we live in a range of 3.2V-4.2V per cell. When I take my packs off my trucks, they tend to vary between 3.3-3.6v per cell. Never are they the same. If the cells within a multi-cell pack differ, the charger needs to be put into "balance" mode so that it charges them all to the proper amount, be it 3.85v for storage or 4.2v for full.

In that same vein, the ESC needs to be lipo capable (or you need a lipo alarm on the packs when using them) so that you don't run them down too far. Most run to 3.4-3.5V if possible. Many ESC's handle this on their own, but they do so by doing the math of the quantity of cells and total voltage. So it's not 100% accurate. If you have a 3S lipo, fully charged at 4.2V per cell you have 12.6V. The ESC sees that it's between a certain range and knows you have 3 cells plugged in, so it has a low voltage cutoff circuit (LVC) in it that will stop the output of power to the motor when it reaches a certain level. Some are preset, others let you pick a range or value. If you pick 3.5V, then it will shut down when the total voltage is 10.5V. It doesn't know that you have one cell at 3.3, one at 3.7 and one at 3.5, it just knows the total is 10.5V. So if you set your LVC to 3.0V-3.2V, you can run the risk of having individual cells dropping below 3V, which is unsafe for lipo's.

And... I probably typed too much.
 
thanks ! I've read the whole page but still doesn't answer my question...why is it that our power tools/laptop lithium batteries are so simple to use compared to the ones in rc ? Nobody check them while charging, no fire bag, no storage charging etc.
Found this thread when scrolling through RCT...I'm gonna try to answer your question though!

So I actually was reading/asking about this specific topic on another forum a while ago, apparently EV/home electronics that use Li-Ions don't have these complications because A) Li-Ions are more stable that Li-Pos, also known as less likely to catch fire (though LiPo fires are already rare), and B) they have software/electrics monitoring the battery, so it won't overcharge the battery, there's a low voltage protection, ect. LiPos are capable of higher C-ratings, but have a lower energy density (aka how much power/mAh you can fit in a given space), but Li-Ions only pull ahead in energy density on larger batteries, like in EVs. Li-Ions have a lower capable C-rating than comparable LiPos, but PCs and EVs get around that with bigger batteries, and the way cells in a pack are wired, like parallel or series, sometimes both in a pack (that's also how some race LiPos can be small yet pack a lot of volts/mAh). Hope this helps!
 
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