How your day can go from good to bad to ugly in a few hours....

[mcvickj]

The Good
Managed to get out of work early and the weather was very nice for this time of the year so I decided to rush home and pack up the Savage and Maxx.

The Bad
Getting into my 2nd hour of bashing I was driving the Savage. I ended up hitting a makeshift jump a little too fast and not quite square. I wish I had a video camera. I was kind a half backflip into a cartwheel. During the stunt I noticed something flew off the Savage. After a closer look I noticed it was my air filter. I forgot to zip tie it. So I shut the truck off right away. The area I was running at was dusty gravel area. I couldn't see anything but I didn't want to chance it. So I messed with the maxx for a lil while longer before calling it a day.

The Ugly
After dinner I decided to tear into the Hyper to inspect and clean it. I get one head screw out. That's all I got out. I managed to strip the other 3 screws. Needless to say at this point I was not in a good mood.

I just talked to a guy at work and he owns a easy out kit. He is going to bring it back with him after lunch. Hopefully he has something that will work.

I have already contacted Ofna to see what these screws are so I can find replacements.

How tight should these screws be. It there such a thing as overtightning the screws? Should I get them snug and a extra turn for good measure. I know I have a heavy hand. I must have put those screws on with an impact because I couldn't budge them to save my life.

 

[Nitroaddict]

man, that sux. what were u using to get them out with? number one cause of stripped allen bolts is due to a poor quality driver.

Personally, i like my head bolts TIGHT. that is where all the "bang" is going on, and i dont want any problems, i also locktight them as well.

 

[mcvickj]

I was using one of my Trinity drivers to get the screws out. I managed to screw that up too. I felt the bit rotating so I backed the setscrew out to reset it and when I was putting the setscrew back in the threads were coming out. I know Chris has a lot of faith in the Ofna drivers. I am really considering getting a set. This is not the first screw that I have managed to strip or slip using the Trinity drivers.

 

[Nitroaddict]

wow. i use the dynamite drivers. cheap - and havnt failed me yet. put three kits together with them, and used them countless times in the field. i think either choice would be good to try out. the dynamite ones i use are only 19.99 for a 3 pack

 

[FastEddy]

I use the scientific method to tighten the head bolts.
First screw them in until they just touch do this on all of them.

Use a star pattern and snug each one down just a bit, again in a star pattern keep snugging them down until you hear or feel a little "Click". Again in a star pattern turn each one just a tad bit more.

I will disagree with using lock-tight on the head bolts for the fact that if they get stuck or striped taking them out you are up a creek like you are now.

The best advice I can give is to check them each time you run. The engine expands when it gets hot making the bolts more secure while running. No need to torque them down overly tight. just one click past snug and check them often.

I learned this the hard way just as you have. Good luck getting them out and keep us informed as to how you did it.

-Ed

 

[StrechM]

I had the same problem with one of mine. I would not use locktite again on that application. I was able to finally remove it with a square driver, not the hex, it was a larger one of the set that I used for my slot car collection.

 

[RobH]

That sucks that you stripped your hexes. That's always a sinking feeling.

I think the OFNA part number is 53003

I'm pulling that off here:
http://www.ofna.com/parts.html

look down for 53003 it says:

53003 SCREWS, HEAD, 4 PCS. 2.95

That's kind of unspecific, but if you look at the parts below it, you see that all of the hyper .21 parts are lumped together and this part number is in the lump.

Good luck. Let us know how the easy-out thing works.

-Rob

 

[mcvickj]

Thanks for the part number Rob. That was the same one Ofna gave me. Sadly the LHS doesn't have that part in stock and Tower doesn't even recognize it. Finding these 4 screws might be a PITA.

The guy at work just brough in his 5 pc Screw Extractor Set made by Black and Decker and a hand chuck. Now its just time to wait for the whistle to blow so I can get outta here.


BTW Nice sig. :thumbup:

 

[RobH]

Here is a little more info:

http://rbproducts.com/rbww/ubb/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=000926#000003

Yeah, you can use the OFNA Hyper screw set...

If you want the sizes:
Head - 3.5x14mm

So if you can find the right size screws, you're good. They don't have to be from OFNA.

hell if you wanted, you could order them from http://www.mcmaster.com/ you'll get a bag of like 50 screws for $5 but they will be very good quality.

 

[mcvickj]

Yeah. Thanks again for the info. I the only reason I was considering going only with Ofna was because I couldn't find the screw information. But now that I have that I am golden. Hopefully everything will go smoothly and I can find the screws tomorrow.

 

[SkyMaxx]

I had a similar issue with the head screws on my Hyper. I thought I had stripped them...when it actuality it was the crappy set of drivers I was using. I acquired a set of Team Losi drivers and they got the screws right out.

I agree with Eddy...no loctite on the head screws. I made that mistake once. Had to boil the engine to get the screws to loosen up...then had to do a lot of extra work to get the engine dried out, oiled and back together.

I suggest you just check the screws for snuggness prior to each run.

 

[Mugen-Racer]

Man I feel for ya. That just sucks. I don't have the name brand drivers like Trinity or Dynamite. I just simply use my Craftsman... Does the job every time...

 

[mcvickj]

Well that is just it. I didn't put any type of threadlock on the screws. After further investation I realized that the screw heads are metric. I was trying to remove these with a SAE driver. So already I am loosing the battle. The 3/32 driver felt snug so I never gave it a thought. This wasn't the first time that I removed those screws with this driver.

The Screw Extractors didn't work. There was nothing for them to grab. So my dad suggests the Dremel. He said he could see the screws so he wanted to try it. Well things kinda got ugly after that.

As you can see the head took most of the direct damage from the cutoff wheel. The block was only slighly damaged. It looks like the surfaces that matter the most were not damaged. What do you guys think about running this engine again? Will the compression be OK? Those screws were almost "fused" to the head. We were able to remove the rest of the screw that was left in the block with our fingernails. My dad suggeset using an anti-sease compound. Thought on that? Maybe using the proper driver would have broke the screws.

After looking at the engine further I found a couple other intersting things.

What are these signs of? Is this consider normal wear on the engine parts. Perhaps I was running the engine too cold during the first couple of tanks during the breakin. The conrod also looks intesting. It looks worn on edge of both sides all the way up into the piston. Does Ofna not clean up the edges of the conrod during assembly? I wish I could get a picture but the pics I took are all too fuzzy to make this out. I am going to try again. The inside of the block looks fine.

I need to do some running around today. I hope to make it to the LHS today and hopefully they will have some head screws for me.

 

[mcvickj]

This sucks. There is no way I should be able to visit my LHS and 4 different hardware stores and come back home empty handed. As soon as I tell anyone I am looking for a M3.5 they just look at me and laugh. WTF? I am starting to wonder if this is the correct size. I just sent another e-mail to Ofna hoping to get confirmation on the screws. This is way to much work for a $3 part. :-/

 

[robriguez]

what digicam are you using??? There should b4e a setting for "close-up" shots. On mine its an icon of a flower. Without it anything closer than 3 feet is all blurry...with it I can get up to about 3 inches away and its crystal clear. See if you can find that type of setting and take more pics.

what digicam are you using??? There should be a setting for "close-up" shots. On mine its an icon of a flower. Without it anything closer than 3 feet is all blurry...with it I can get up to about 3 inches away and its crystal clear. See if you can find that type of setting and take more pics.

 

[mcvickj]

I am using a Canon PowerShot A10. I did not know about that upclose feature. Thanks for the info robriguez.

Here are some new shots.

 

[msly]

Hey Man sorry about your loss... I hate when crap goes wrong like that. there was no way to back the screws out huh? I would be concerned that the head is no longer going to make proper contact for optimum cooling of the engine. I respect you for trying to fix it...when I have mishaps like that my first reaction is to trash it and start over. I am always worried I would be trowing money into a lost cause. From what you can tell do you think most of the engine is salvageable? Well not that my post was helpful but for myself this is how I would have reacted. Well good luck and keep us posted.

sLY

 

[RobH]

That sucks that you had to do that to screws. I was going to suggest something, but I thought people would yell at me. I've done this before and it's worked for me. If it every happens again, use a drill and gently dill away the head. You start with a bit that is about the same size as the hex. You drill down a ways (carefully). Then you move up a size and drill down again. Eventually, the hole will be so big that the head will come off leaving you a dognut shape and the rest of the screw will still be in the engine block. After you take the head off, you will have a short piece of screw hanging out of the block. You then take a pair of vice grips and clamp onto that small piece and unscrew it.

It's not the best advice, but it really beats the dremel way. I appologize for not stepping up and saying it before.

Also, when you put the sleeve in, I believe it's a little bit taller than the top of the case. The seal, therefore, is between the top of the sleeve and the shoulder of the cooling head (well there is a shim between the two, but you get the idea). The bottom line is that the engine should be OK even with the missing material from the head and case.

I don't claim to be an expert at this stuff. The pic of the crankshaft though looks like the conrod bushing got really hot on the on the cam that holds it. Those marks remind me of when you heat up a piece of metal in one spot. The metal around the spot has that blue -> orange -> silver band. You see similar marks around the piston and on the inside of the sleeve.

If I were holding a magic 8 ball, it would say something like "outlook not so good".

For the record, I've kill 2 engines myself. It's the cost of inexperience.


Good Luck with it,
Rob

 

[ImBroken]

mcvickj, you have a PM... I may be able to help ya out....
TJ

 

[mcvickj]

I do think the engine is salvageable. The fit between the sleve and piston is still excellent. I can not push it all the way through. As you can see that inner ring of the heatsink is what seems to be the more important. That sits right on top of the sleve. The outer ring does does not make any contact to the block. If it did I would have never been able to get to those screws. What I was really curious about is how the edges of the conrod got so chewed up. :-/

Rob - Its ok. I thought about that idea for a few minutes. Not really sure why we didn't try that first. I guess we thought the dremel bit was small enough to get in there without causing too much damage. So I am assuming from what you are saying I shouldn't see those marks? They are not signs of normal wear?

ImBroken - I replied to your PM.