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Possible to be too lean and too rich?

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ImageFX

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Ok, i'm still trying to tune my car just right. It still has no kick off the line. It takes some time for it to actually pump up the juice. Then if I slow down too much, it's like i have to wait again for 2nd gear to kick in. So my question is...is it possible that I have my LSN and HSN turned counter clockwise too much? Is it possible that i could be letting in too much gas and air?
Is it possible that i may have to start turning the needles the other direction? My car just seems like it shouldn't take as long as it does to reach 2nd gear and really turn on the speed. Of all the videos I've watched, no one has the wait time I do when it comes reaching those higher speeds.

Thoughts?
 
Counterclockwise is richening, clockwise is leaning. Turn your LSN needle clockwise. If lots of smoke comes out while its bogging then it is too rich. If little smoke come out and it sounds like its choking then it's too lean. Also when adjusting your needles alway do them in 1/8 turn increments until you get in the correct range. Run around for at least 30-45 seconds for the needle settings to take effect. Once you get in range you can do a fine tune tweak to maximize performance.
 
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Ok, let clear this up really quick. I thought Rich = Gas and Lean = Air. So can the term "rich" be used in conjunction with air flow? And can someone say "lean out" referring to the gas?
 
The LSN and HSN needles are used to increase and decrease the amount of fuel to your engine. You cannot adjust the volume of air with the needles, only the amount of fuel delivered. By turning the needles clockwise that decreases the flow of fuel, hence the term "leaning" out the air/fuel mixture. When turning them counterclockwise they increase the flow of fuel, thus "richening" the air/fuel mixture.
 
grrr...the plot thickens!!! I thought the HSN was the fuel and the LSN was the air. So if both are fuel...then I'm attempting to get the same amount of fuel flow running thru my HSN (needle at the top) as my LSN?

My perspective of how it worked was....the fuels enters the HSN which travels into the motor. The glow plug heats the fuel into molecules that create spark. And those molecules along with air are rushed out thru the LSN (hence the name "air"). Am I totally wrong?
 
ImageFX said:
grrr...the plot thickens!!! I thought the HSN was the fuel and the LSN was the air. So if both are fuel...then I'm attempting to get the same amount of fuel flow running thru my HSN (needle at the top) as my LSN?

My perspective of how it worked was....the fuels enters the HSN which travels into the motor. The glow plug heats the fuel into molecules that create spark. And those molecules along with air are rushed out thru the LSN (hence the name "air"). Am I totally wrong?


Wow, you are way, way, way over thinking this whole thing, man. Take a step back and catch your breath! The plot only thickens because you are trying to figure the physics of this out, rather than just having fun. It isn't a science fair on wheels, man.

Your analogy above is incorrect. The LSN controls fuel flow from idle to mid-open throttle, say, dead stop to half throttle.

The HSN handles mid-throttle to WOT.

The worst thing you can do, both for your sanity and for the life of your engine, is try to tune both needles at the same time! You're asking for problems.

Best thing you can do right now, is, set your needles back to factory. Once you've done that, start tuning your HSN first (and ONLY your HSN right now.) You're looking for a temperature in the 220-230 range, a good smoke trail and your rig running nice and smooth from mid throttle to WOT. Once you've gotten to this point, and ONLY when you've gotten to this point, you can start tuning the LSN.

The LSN will control the 'jump' you refer to. Goal is to be able to nail the throttle and your rig get up and go! Once you've tuned the HSN, start dialing in the LSN clockwise in 1/8th increments until you reach the preformance you are looking for. If you nail the throttle and it gurgles and sputters, turn it clockwise. If you nail it and it flames out suddenly, you are too lean, turn it counter-clockwise. Once you have it to where you think it should be, give it the pinch test. It's really easy, pinch the fuel line to the carb and starting counting "one, one-thousand, two, one-thousand..." until it shuts down. If you got anywhere from 3-5 seconds, your LSN is dialed in. If it cuts off before 3, you may be a bit too lean, still. Anything over 5 and you may be a bit too rich. It may not be scientific, but you'll see a lot of folks here swear by it!

The crucial thing to keep in mind throughout all of this is.....PATIENCE! You keep jacking with the needles every 10 seconds you'll go crazy and be nothing but pissed off! Like Sweetdiesel said, give yourself 30-45 seconds of run time in between adjustments. That does not mean 30-45 seconds of idle time! You have to run it! I usually count 8 to 10 passes of about 150 feet before I bring it in to adjust and I work to go through the entire throttle power band.

Don't get too wrapped up on molecules being formed and where they go. Just take it one step at a time. Once you get it down, it'll become second nature, but you have to be patient and learn to understand what the mill is telling you it's doing. You just have to learn its language!

Have fun with it! Keep posting with any problems and don't forget to use the search function. I think if you search 'tuning' in the power plants forum, there is a great article on how to tune. I'll try looking as well and if I find the link, I'll post it here.
 
Wow... I can't wait until you have a question about "tuned" exhausts!

Follow what MW has laid out for you. Fortunatly, it's not as complicated as your making it. When all else fails, walk away... or, if your not totally t'd off, set the needles back to factory and start over.

Rememember, this is supposed to be fun!
 
Much thanks guys! I'm a computer guy, so I like getitng down to the little details. But I'll take a step back and not over analyze the whole thing. It's just that when I pick up something I'm interested in, I like to know all the workings.

Anyways, I've taken in the info you guys have provided and will apply it. Again, much thanks!
 
I don't mean for this to be an insualt or anything, but it might help for you to learn the basics of how a combustion engine works, maybe go to howstuffworks.com, and type internal combustion engine, when you know the basics of how engines work it might make a little more sence to you, it appears that you are trying to understand some of the finer details when you don't know the basics.
 
jaymasta said:
I don't mean for this to be an insualt or anything, but it might help for you to learn the basics of how a combustion engine works, maybe go to howstuffworks.com, and type internal combustion engine, when you know the basics of how engines work it might make a little more sence to you, it appears that you are trying to understand some of the finer details when you don't know the basics.

I don't take that as an insult at all. In fact, I'm going to do that! I welcome any and all help. Thanks
 
good morning ,
right at the top of the section when you first open the general nitro thread there is a spot for beginners ,excellent reading if your just starting out
 
racin_38 said:
good morning ,
right at the top of the section when you first open the general nitro thread there is a spot for beginners ,excellent reading if your just starting out

Yeah, i read that. Monkey Wrench did a better job explaining it here though. :)

Also, here is the link to Internal Combustion on howstuffworks.com. Just got done reading it. Good Stuff!
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/engine1.htm
 
he has an rs4 right?

It should change in about 3 seconds of full throttle. anymore and there is something wrong.


I suggest going to the hobby store.. paying them to tune it.. and carefully watching them do it. After that. When everything is properly tuned then you should learn to tune it.. I've seen 20 posts from you in the last 2 weeks.. and they are all related to a proper tune. We can and also cannot help you in this way. One of us needs to be there. and we could have you up and running in a few minutes.


Regardless if the lhs changes you $15 to tune. Do it. Ask lots of questions. Normally its an easy process, but if you do not have any previous knowledge of the subject it could turn out to be a headache and a half. You learn by questions. But the lhs should be able to help you properly tune your car. My lhs gives you a free tune if you by your model from them. When I was a noob. I used to break in the car. And then bring it to them for a tune. and just watch carefully. for the most part, stay away from your lsn, lsn normally hold a tune pretty well where as the hsn should always require adjustments under different running conditions.
 
Let's not jump on the new guy, we were all beginners at one time, don't ever forget that. RCs, and especially nitro powered vehicles do have somewhat of a steep learning curve if you have never been exposed to them before.

Not all LHS give great advise, and I've seen my share to know that some are in it to make more money selling parts than to keep someone interested in the hobby. That is what this forum is for, to help those who need advise. I have to disagree that you have to have someone tune an engine for you in order for you to learn. I had no prior experience with nitros before, and I learned how to tune soley on the advise and knowledge from this site.

ImageFX,

I can understand the excitement you have being new to this sport, and I hope you never lose it. I'm glad you asked more than just the how, but also the why. In the end you will benefit and gain more from it and hopefully be able to pass on the knowledge to someone new. No one turns into an great engine tuner overnight, and with time and patience, you will find that tuning will become easier and easier for you.


Good luck and most of all, have fun! :cheers:
 
For some people its alot easier seeing it before doing it ..

especially when you have 20 people probably more in the 5 threads about this.. that are saying do this, no do that with a little bit of this and so on. you can't help him tune if you can't see his ride and whats wrong with it and when everyones giving a different answer.


so far everyone on this board has given him quick fixes. sure he can get it running with your advice.. but a day later theres another thread about something else that someone didnt cover. so why not give him probably the best advice.. and start learning with a fresh tune.. so he knows how its supposed to sound while running properly.. and there for he can tune by ear.. instead of tunning by internet
 
If you were to read all of ImageFX posts you would know that he's completely new to this. And if you read all of the responses not a single one of them is a "quick fix". If his car isn't running right the next time, he would follow the same advice to get it running again. Also, can you point out where we are giving him different answers? I believe we are leading him in the right direction. If you have information that contradicts what has been said please chime in and enlighten us.

I think it is great that your LHS was able to tune your car for you. People learn in many ways, if he chooses to take it to his LHS and get it tuned then great. But obviously he chose to come to this site and ask for help. If he can take that information and use it then more power to him. If not.... well at least we tried. But to jump on him and give him a generic answer is not being very helpful.
 
McoupeRS4EVO said:
I've seen 20 posts from you in the last 2 weeks.. and they are all related to a proper tune.


The guy is new and needs advice.
This is an RC forum. A place to ask questions.
So whats wrong with asking questions?
 
McoupeRS4EVO said:
For some people its alot easier seeing it before doing it ..

especially when you have 20 people probably more in the 5 threads about this.. that are saying do this, no do that with a little bit of this and so on. you can't help him tune if you can't see his ride and whats wrong with it and when everyones giving a different answer.


so far everyone on this board has given him quick fixes. sure he can get it running with your advice.. but a day later theres another thread about something else that someone didnt cover. so why not give him probably the best advice.. and start learning with a fresh tune.. so he knows how its supposed to sound while running properly.. and there for he can tune by ear.. instead of tunning by internet



Not only do I disgaree 100% with everything you have here, I challenge you to define a "quick fix"? None of the advice this gentleman has been given is a quick fix, but a method to tuning that will insure long-term enjoyment and performance. I agree, it would be great if someone could visit him and show him what does what, but sending him to a LHS to pay to have it tuned teaches him very little! Besides, as Sweetdiesel alluded to, not all LHS' are out to best serve their customer, but make the easy dollar. Think about it, you take your regular car to the dealer for an oil change and the mechanic comes out and says the head gasket is blown and will cost $1500.00 to fix. Same principle, really.

I appreciate his willingness to listen and try and to probe into the "why" part of it. Beats some of these others who post a problem then argue the solution with you! I'll give someone like Image all the help he needs!
 
not in this thread, but in one or two of the other.. I clearly remember one member saying lean, the next post, saying richen, and the one after that saying clearly its your lsn. its posts like that... its pretty much like if hes had this much help and its still breaking down every few days. almost like nitro freak. If you can help them in one post.. obviously.. telling him to do a bunch of poop which isnt necessarily right isnt going to fix his problems.

any of you three that replied to my advice.

My car wont start, I have a new glow plug, new fuel, a new engine a brand new ignitor battery, a brand new starter box, with brand new batteries... why wont my car start...

monkey wrench I agree with you.. but if you walk into any hobby store that deals with nitro and you say tune my car. I'm sure they can come up with something, the always do.. but if you say.. f off.. tune my holy moly car and if i need something i will get it. I'm sure he would learn.. but everyones giving him different answers..


And i didnt necessarily mean quick fixes.

but If you get him up and running by telling him to turn this and turn that.. and the one day later hes posting the same thing.. that would be a quick fix would it not.?
 
but If you get him up and running by telling him to turn this and turn that.. and the one day later hes posting the same thing.. that would be a quick fix would it not.?

Not necessarily. If you notice, the one thing I repeated, at least twice, was patience. Turning a needle a 1/4 turn and expecting it to instantly have an effect is not patience. Not allowing the engine to come to temperature before trying to tune, or trying to tune both needles at the same time is not patience.

Furthermore, I, and most everyone else, are giving advice based on the symptoms being presented. If Image (or anyone, for that matter) is not being detailed and explicit on what their rig is doing, then the advice given is only as good as the symptoms presented.

I agree that going to a hobby shop that deals with nitro and saying tune my rig is a good idea, but if you are new to the hobby, and the shop technician says the only way for it to keep a tune is if you buy "X", "Y" and "Z", do you really know enough to be able to say no, that's not what the problem is?

I think we both have the same goal in mind, so I'm sure he appreciates your insights as well.
 
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