As a racer: How can I tell the difference between a skill issue and a setup issue?

[lambdapriest]

Took the carpet buggies racing last night. It didn't go well!

My schedule doesn't make it easy to get to club races, so I decided - "hey, if I can't race often, I'm going to make the most of it - I'll run 3 cars. More track time = more experience = get good faster!". This may have been a mistake.

I had a tough time switching between my 21.5 2wd, 17.5 2wd, and 13.5 4wd. Never felt comfortable with any of 'em. For practice, I try my best to do timed 5-minute runs on a fresh pack, then switch cars - and I felt like I was adaptable enough to do well, coming in to last night; but I suppose that with the added pressure of a race + traffic, I just... wasn't ready for it.

Anyway, so - the real question - how can I start identifying the difference between a skill issue and a setup issue? I don't like the idea of "blaming the car" - but setup can truly make or break a race day, and I still don't know what I'm doing. Still trying to learn how changing the different parameters on the car can impact its performance. What should I look for?

(Sorry if this is a bad question. I'm sure that some good advice would be, "focus on getting good with one car before adding a second and third", and I plan on doing that, too.)

 

[BarnFabRC]

This is a great question and one I’ve asked myself plenty of times.

I’m new to scale racing this year so I’m no expert. One of the things that has helped me on the setup side is the Invisible Speed YouTube Channel
The videos are typically long but also very detailed about a specific thing. A lot of it (mostly all of it) is directly about 1/8 nitro buggies but all the principles pretty easily translate to any type of off road RC racing. I’ve found them immensely helpful in making gains in my own racing program. He does some technique stuff too but he’s mostly focused on setups.

Ryan Stiles Harris while not having posted anything new in quite a while, is really great for explaining techniques and ways to improve your driving skills. He also does some setup videos as well.

I’m with you on running too many classes at one event. I was running 2wd open buggy and 4wd short course at me local track. I quickly realized I’m really no good at driving the 2 wheeler but I feel I can mostly blame it on my car. It started as an associated DR10 that I converted to an RB 10 but many of the components are just not the right ones. And my SCT is basically a Slash ultimate but got there in a very round about way. It started as a Rustler and bit by bit got upgraded and converted. I’ve gotten it pretty close but in the end it’s still a Traxxas.

I was getting frustrated but I really enjoy the racing. So I bought an Associated RC10B74.1D because it’s a proper race car and built it up. I used the best electrics I could afford and set it up to the letter how the manual describes.

The first time I took it out I was crushing my previous times with the other two while still making a lot of mistakes. The first time I brought it out I ran three classes and realized three was just too many. There was never a moment to sit and think about driving. Also ended up with back to back races. It was just too much.

The last time I was out I only brought the B74 and the Slash. It was better but still difficult to focus on specific skills because they are just so different. My intention over the winter is to setup the B74 for carpet based on the factory settings and just run that. I want to focus on car control and jump timing. I’ve only driven carpet one time and it seems much easier than outdoor unsealed dirt/clay. There’s actually grip! Next year I’m going to start the season with just the B74 and see how it goes.

I also plan to build up a Tekno 4wd SCT or mini truggy. Something that’s a real race chassis. Not a basher in disguise.

There’s a few more events at my outdoor track this year and I think I’m only going to bring the B74 to see how my lap times improve. I’m fairly confident that I’ll be able to get past the halfway point and maybe even get a podium if all the stars align and the fastest guys have a rough night hahahaha. That being said my only real goal is to get my times down some, not be bottom three and gain the ability to identify setup deficiencies from driving deficiencies.

One of my biggest struggles is my “local” track is nearly a 2 hour drive so going for a mid week practice session is typically not in the cards. If I could get out a few times per month for a good solo session I feel I’d make some big gains. But for now I have to cram it all in on a race day.

 

[bill_delong]

I made the mistake by starting out with too many classes, I also ran 3 classes when I first got into racing thinking that would equate to more track time and my skills would improve faster. What I completely neglected was proper maintenance and setup.

If I could do it over again I would focus on just 1 car, then once I was no longer chasing setup I would introduce a second car into my race program.

In your case I would start with the 13.5 wheeler, that will be the most forgiving and easiest to drive option. Start with a setup sheet from a local pro level driver in your area, use that as your baseline and work with that pro to help make minor adjustments to his setup to suit your personal needs. He'll know what changes to make simply by watching you drive.

Are you running fresh tires? If not, then that is going to be your main issue to resolve first. Talk to the local fast guys and ask how frequently they replace their tires, I know of some guys with deep pockets that run a brand new set of tires every single run! Before I switched to Raw Speed tires I would 2-3 race days on Schumachers, but RawSpeed will go 4-6 race days which helps save me a lot of money on my tire budget.

When I'm working with a new driver, I tell them to ignore the hot lap, they need to focus on a hot qual where consistency is faster than speed. Goal is to make it through an entire race without a single wreck... and if you keep making mistakes then you need to dial back the EPA on the throttle. Once you get 95% consistency or better, then you can slowly increase the EPA to get more throttle being careful not to upset your consistency. As you get closer to hitting 98% consistency runs, then it's time to focus on faster quals, again ignore the hot lap, what you want is a hot qual instead.

Always let the faster guys take the inside line and then follow their line for a couple turns and resist the temptation to "race" them, let them pull away, just observe their brake points and angles for corner entry and corner exit. You will gain speed without having to try by simply following their lines, just remember that slower is faster... at least slow into a corner (brake when going straight before you begin to turn) and fast out of a corner.... "slow in/fast out"

It will be impossible to know you have setup issues without experience, lean heavily on the pro drivers to help you out.

Good Luck!

 

[lambdapriest]

Wow. First and foremost - thank you @BarnFabRC and @bill_delong for the thoughtful replies. I’ll attempt to do them both justice!

I’m actually pretty familiar already with Invisible Speed and Ryan Stiles Harris. I’ve watched a lot of their content - in fact, I paid for JQ’s course; I’m waiting on the book (the course came with a pre-order of the latest revision) and I’m working my way through the videos. I’ve watched a ton of the introductory stuff and I’m just finally getting into the meat of the setup / physics explanations. Ryan seems like a standup dude, too, but I feel like his videos are a little on the side of info-tainment. I’ve learned a lot from them, and I am not here to damn him with faint praise, but I often wish that they were a little less “fluffy”. (But too, I’m sympathetic to the hustle of being a YouTube Content Creatoooor. Man’s gotta eat.)

After reading both of y’all’s replies - I think that the common thread here is that I’m trying to do way, way too much at once. And Bill, I feel called out - I really do not have enough time to do proper maintenance on all 3 cars! I’ve tried my best, I really have - but since I’m still struggling to drive consistently, I crash. All 3 cars. A lot. Crashing generates maintenance, which means that I can’t drive the car, which means that I’m losing the time that I should be spending practicing to “rebuilding the whole front end again”. And what really sucks is when I have to spend time doing maintenance on a car that I’m not even very fast with, which prevents me from having time to develop skill with the car that’s a little more promising. Your comment really brought that into focus for me - so, thank you.

I am running fresh tires. That was actually part of my problem last night! I threw fresh tires on the 21.5t 2wd the night before the race, and found that I was making too much grip to drive the lines that I’d felt comfortable with in practice earlier in the week. (The old tires had maybe 12-15 packs in them. They were still manageable, I was just breaking the back loose on occasion if I didn’t get through certain sections perfectly.) I really should’ve left them alone.

Sidenote: People tend to talk about tires in terms of “race days”. I practice way (way way way) more than I race - since the track is so close, I drive 4-5 days a week, at least. Lately, my work schedule has made it so that I can actually be at the club for upwards of 15 hours per week (!), but that’s ending very soon; but I hope to make it for at least 6-8. How many packs, on average, given 5-minute runs as the metric for “a pack”, do you usually run before you change tires?

I actually really want to focus on 13.5 4wd if I start only running one car, but I’m conflicted. I actually feel more consistent with the car overall, but the skill of all of the other guys that race 13.5 4wd is… astonishing. I feel like I look like less of an embarrassment in 21.5t 2wd. Another factor is that 99% of my club runs AE, and I could easily set up my AE B6.4 to run 21.5t - whereas my 4wd is a TLR 22x-4, so there’s less readily-available in terms of support for parts or setup advice; and I really don’t feel like… building a B74.2 two weeks after I built a B6.4, which I did for the express purpose of having better parts availability and being able to get setup advice from my friends at the club. I might try throwing a 21.5t into my B6.4 and seeing how it goes; I likely won’t race again for a month, so I have some time to narrow my focus.

I appreciate the counsel about not focusing on hotlaps. I often practice alone (as in, “it’s noon and I’m alone at the club with the manager and his assistant”) - so I do 5-minute timed runs with my transponder in, but with the laptime speaker off. That lets me get a feel for my lap times, but it doesn’t break my focus like it does when I’m listening out of the corner of my ear for Ms MyLaps to tell me that I’ve done yet another lap that’s a full three seconds off of the A-main pace. Still not getting through 5-minute runs without having to self-marshal at least 3-4 times; I’m hoping that settling down a little and only running one car during a given practice session will help with this. I need to dial back my EPA - but again, that’s a pain in the ass with 21.5t, because we usually build track layouts with at least one jump that absolutely has to be taken at full speed in the 21.5t car, at risk of bending the chassis (which I’ve already done twice in the last month). So I either run 13.5t 4wd with my throttle EPA down, or run 21.5t 2wd and… pray. (I have a lot to think about.)

I also appreciate the comment about trying to settle in and follow the fast guys. I’m not quite there yet; I can hang for 3-4 turns but I get into my own head and make a mistake and fall off. I think I’ll take that as a near-term goal, and focus on getting clean 5-minute runs for now.

So, my takeaways here:

• Don’t run so many god damned cars on a race night before you can drive any one of them competently
• Keep tires very fresh
• Bug fast pros for setup tips and keep studying JQ and RSH content
• Choose between 21.5t 2wd and 13.5 4wd; if 13.5t 4wd, turn throttle EPA down and turn it back up very slowly
• Focus on learning one car inside and out - to improve driving skill overall, and to cut down on the maintenance overhead

I might look into the RawSpeed tires while I’m at it, too; most of the gang here runs JCon Fuzzbites, but I know we stock RawSpeeds (and I’m particularly fond of their bodies).

I know that this is incredibly long. Thank both of you for your sound advice and patience!

 

[BarnFabRC]

I have to admit I’m a bit jealous that you got the whole JQ course. How’s the stuff behind the paywall? As good as what I’ve seen from the free stuff on YouTube? I really want to buy into it but I’m a bit broke at the moment.

Also I fully agree on RSH being almost infotainment. Even so, I’ve tried a few of the things he’s said and could see marked improvement. My biggest issue I think is I need to get these things to become muscle memory. I have them all in mind before I head to the drivers stand, but probably 70% of it vanishes at the tone .

One day at a time I guess…

Still having a lot of fun with racing and every outing I seem to make some progress. I know I’ll never be competing at the worlds, but it’d be nice to pull a trophy some day at a local event.

 

[lambdapriest]

The JQ course is good - very in-depth. He does recycle some content from his YouTube channel - but I can't say I blame him. No reason to make a whole new video on, say, line choice - when he got it right the first time.

The real meat and potatoes seems to be the content on setup changes, which I am just getting into. I'll have more to say on it as I progress through the material.

The progress is what keeps me hooked. When I started driving, I was yeeting my poor Stampede around the track and having to self-marshal 1-2 times per lap. Now, I have to self-marshal 3-5 times every 5 minutes. We've come a long way, but we've got further yet to go.

 

[ahr43]

My experience has been that if it is inconsistent, it is a skill issue. If it's consistent, it's a set-up issue. Bear in mind, these are generalities based on my loose dirt racing and bashing and on road drag racing. Carpet and hard blue groove clay may communicate issues differently. Dunno there.

Regarding the number of cars to race. With one and only one exception, I've only raced one car at an event. That allows me to focus on the overall event rather than having to split my attention over multiple entries. Driving, wrenching, marshalling and interacting with other racers are all important aspects of an event. Each requires its own special commitment to pull off masterfully. Comes with experience at the track.

As a caveat, esp. with RC drag racing turn-around time becomes compressed with each round of competition. So, if one is fortunate enough to make the semi-final or the final, turnaround time is so tight that running multiple entries almost certainly guarantees multiple losses.

Talking generalities here. Hang in there. Better times and podiums will come. Hope this helps. Cheers. 'AC'

 

[DavidB1126]

Yea I like Ryan Harris, watched a lot of his videos. But my only thing is that he isn't a big carpet guy, which is alright, but still alot of his videos are helpful to me. Sad that he haven't posted anything lately, I know he did/does dirtbikes/motocross, and I believe he got into an accident late last year.

Can't really comment on this as i am still improving on my driving, and how my car is setup.

Here is a thread on how I improved my driving: https://www.rctalk.com/forum/threads/how-i-improved-my-driving-over-the-last-couple-months.138583/

And here is a thread on the big race coming up: https://www.rctalk.com/forum/threads/getting-ready-for-a-big-race-happening-in-a-few-weeks.139426/

I try to only race one class so its less stressful for me, for charging up battery packs, and not to mention I only have 1 transponder currently. My uncle now only races 4wd buggy too when I drag him down to the track, as its the only car he has. So he has time to relax, and marshal.

Earlier this summer, I was racing both 4wd Bug and Mini B which I managed to do. After my buggy race, I put that battery pack on charge, put a fresh pack in, take the transponder out, and get the Mini B ready, and vise versa for the races after that. I'm now bringing the slash (3rd class) along now each race night because I want to race sct, and so does the owner. Ill bring it, but I ain't going to run 3 classes at a time, way too stressful. I mean, I could do it / manage it, but I atleast need a second transponder.

(Racing on a budget, well not really anymore. Transponders get expensive)

In my how I improved on my driving, that was on the course of a couple months from back in March, to early June. I also drove better once I got used to driving each car back to back so many times, and some setup changes (mostly tires and experimenting with diff oils) I mainly race and want to do carpet mostly, because thats where I started out. I do have a local indoor clay track, only been there 3 times (+30 minute drive from the carpet track, so a hour drive in total on the way there, so a day trip) and I don't know how to really drive on lower traction tracks like that. It could be my tires, maybe trying out different tire compounds, not really sure. But I do want to stick to carpet as carpet is my local track. (Since I don't like to change setups, I ran with a carpet setup on a clay track minus tires and added ride height) Also, IMO, carpet is more like less expensive for me? While at the clay track, or while I was at Beach RC since I drive poorly on those tracks, I broke alot of stuff. My uncle did pretty good and finished 7th overall in the race night, not to mention it was his first time on dirt. He was using slicks while I was using treaded bar tires (we were using the same traction compound) I was right after him and finished 8th overall.

(Another thing for driving, my B74 was my first race grade car, kit and 4 wheel car, so I had alot on myself, coming from traxxas 2wd bashers)

All that I am working on now is consistency, and getting faster. my buggy, which is spec 13.5, is pretty average, but there is 2 other racers, which had been racing for a long time, and set their cars up really good. I think the fastest lap time was a 11 or 12 second lap? I am averaging 13 to 15 second lap times (medium sized carpet track)

Tomorrow I am going down for 3 ish hours for practice, might setup a timed practice session in the LiveRC system to improve for the big race next weekend.

 

[bill_delong]

Every track is different, the turf in my area is a medium grip, I start with about 75% steering speed with a fresh set of tires and turn up the speed between 1-2% after every run, this allows me to run the same setup on a new set of tires and maintain my lap times as the tires wear. Once the steering speed hits 100% then that will be the last run for that set of tires. I always run a brand new set of tires for the mains, and then remaining runs are used for quals the following race day. In the winter months I might get 3 good runs on a set of tires for mains and save my older tires for quals. I put a small tick using a sharpie on the inside of 1 wheel to track my runs per set of tires.

If you want to get faster, then run 13.5 with the faster drivers... just don't block them but it takes driving with faster drivers to become faster. If you stick with the 21.5 drivers, you won't learn how to take faster lines as you follow the slower drivers who are less experienced. Once you get your 13.5 sorted out and have a solid program hitting 95% consistency or better, then I would add 21.5 for your second class and then you can focus on winning those races. Right now, your focus is developing your skill and it will take longer to develop skill in 21.5 alone.

4WD will also be more cost effective in the long run as they typically get double the life of 2WD where 4WD slowly fades lap times where 2WD has a sharp edge where lap time drop off pace and car tends to become undrivable in the middle of race if you haven't figured out your program yet.

When I say program, I'm talking about tracking tire wear and knowing when to dowgrade a main tire to a qual tire and from qual to practice as well as knowing when to discard practice tires. The key for me is adjusting steering speed and not have to make any setup changes to account for tire wear.

Good Luck!

 

[lambdapriest]

My experience has been that if it is inconsistent, it is a skill issue. If it's consistent, it's a set-up issue.

This is wonderful insight. Thank you so much - this is a wonderful aphorism that I know that I can easily remember!

And with regards to the comment about running multiple classes - I had the chance to speak with one of the guys at my club that usually runs and wins with 2-3 classes, consistently, most weekends; I found that he’d been doing this on and off for nearly half his life. He agreed that running 3 cars in the same night was way too big of a bite to chew for someone that was still so new.

@DavidB1126 - based on your comment about running 13-15s when the fast guys are running 11-12s - I would guess that we're probably going about the same speed on an "average" lap, but you've probably got more consistency / fewer "oh-poop" laps. Gotta agree about carpet - I absolutely love it. I appreciate you sharing your progress threads - I read them - and @bill_delong's comment about "blowing the corner" - that's gold. I now know what that is, and I can start working on not doing it anymore. Because I do that, a lot, especially in 1/10 scale. Sucks to hear that Ryan got hurt, though. I will never run moto... after spending 12 years racing BMX and getting injured more times than I can count, I know for a fact that strapping myself to a dirtbike is a recipe for instant hospitalization. Moto is a brutal sport, and IMO, if you don't start as a child... you're just not gonna make it. I respect the hustle, though. Anyway - I've tried running back-to-back different cars in practice - and I think that I just don't... have enough seat time yet, to do that effectively. You're a few months further along than I am. But I think that I can get there! (Sidenote: if you haven't gotten a new radio yet and you're itching to grab one... I cannot recommend the FlySky Noble NB4 enough. Holy christ. Upgrading to that from the Spektrum DX5C that I was on has been night and day in terms of how much I enjoy driving. It's cheap as hell - something like $250, and mine came with two - TWO - receivers. It feels like a premium device; it's nice to hold. Battery life is unreal. The menus are clear and easy to navigate. YouTube people are saying that it's within a few ms of Sanwas in terms of response time. Many dudes at my club love them, and they're outstanding for Mini-Z, if you ever get into that.)

@bill_delong - thank you so much for the clear explanation of how you gauge tire wear. I've never heard anybody lay it out like that before. I think I'm going to try your strategy. We have RawSpeed Fast Forwards in stock at my club and I kinda want to try them - but since everybody runs JCon FuzzBites, I'm considering just running those, because I know that they'll virtually always be in stock; I'll think about it. (I know I could order stuff from AMain or whatever, but I really like supporting my club and spending my money there, when I can.) But the idea about slowing down speed to 75% on fresh rubber and ticking it up every run, is clear, actionable, and easy-to-remember. The only thing is, your strategy for main / qual / practice tires seems to assume that you're racing often; I get to practice most days of the week, but I only get to race every few weeks - so I'm going to start by just trying to be mindful of how tires feel after X number of runs and adjusting my steering speed accordingly. I feel like if I do that, I'll end up mounting and running fresh tires more often, which means I'll get a better feel for "driving on new tires", which means that I'll be able to just break out a fresh set for a main on race day and not have to worry about how it feels to change tires in the middle of a race day. Furthermore - only running one car for practice days means that I will have time between runs to do my tire bookkeeping / radio adjustment while I let the car cool down, instead of just grabbing the other car on the bench and walking back to the stand.

I should be able to run for a few hours today. I'm going to try to get my 4wd car back to "driveable" - I need to build a steering link, lmao - and see how I do on fresh tires, running the same car every time I go up to the stand. Throughout the week, I'm going to try to get to some of the maintenance that I've been deferring - rebuilding my diffs, installing that carbon fiber chassis that I bought over a month ago, running my bearings through the ultrasonic cleaner, cleaning the damn thing - and that should help, too.

Thank all of you so much. Holy Christ, I simply cannot believe the quality of discourse on this website. Really appreciate it. I'll likely update the thread after I run today with commentary on how it went.

 

[bill_delong]

my preference is to rebuild a car after every 2 hours of run time, more info here:
https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?4308293-Maintenance-Tips

 

[lambdapriest]

Appreciate that and the link, @bill_delong - I have a lot of wrenching ahead of me if I'm going to get these cars into shape! Might do a (re)build thread on my 22x-4... it needs to be gone over with a fine-toothed comb.

 

[lambdapriest]

Ran the 22x-4 yesterday. Crashed the 22x-4 yesterday. Repeatedly.

The whole drivetrain feels like it's basically gone. I need to do a full service on it - I think I might have some hub bearings that are vaporized; outdrives are shot; diffs and shocks need a rebuild; I really want to install that carbon chassis; one CVA is bent and the other 3 likely have worn pins; and God only knows what I'll find when I start pulling it apart, as I bought it used (from a reputable driver, but still - it's probably overdue).

I also have a center diff to install. And it needs a new wing. And tires. I could go on.

So with all of that in mind, and given the relative difficulty in finding TLR parts in my area, that means I probably have a few rounds of AMain / Horizon / eBay orders in my future. Factoring in that the new layout we just set up is really technical and given that I'm probably not going to be able to race for another month or so - I think I'm going to focus on 21.5t 2wd. More than anything, I need to learn how to drive consistently, and I think that car will help me learn to carry corner speed and manage my momentum.

I threw a 21.5t into my AE B6.4 this morning. I bought that car since AE parts are readily available here, and since most of the guys at my club run AE and are never shy about giving advice. It has virtually-new tires, so I can start tracking wear and learning to run a tire program. I think it's going to work out okay.

One question about tire programs though, @bill_delong - I have a Flysky Noble NB4 remote. On my old Spektrum DX5C, if I wanted to change channel speed, I could set it as a percentage, as you recommended; however, on the Noble, it seems like channel speed can only be programmed as a delay. I guess that what I need to do, is take slow-motion video and see if the delay is just stretching out the time that it takes to move the wheel to a given position, or if it's actually waiting before it initiates movement, and then performing the movement at "full speed". It feels like the latter. Anyway - is there something else I could change that would allow me to progressively enable more steering as my tires fade? Playing with EPA or expo seem to me to be fundamentally different than "increasing the slip angle more quickly as the tires fade".

 

[bill_delong]

FlySky effed up with firmware 2.0.100std

That version only offers a delay in 0.1s increments which is useless, don't bother using steering speed with this version, perhaps if it was in 0.01s increments might be more doable?

I am running firmware 2.0.85 and that version offers 1% increments.

Not sure if you can downgrade to the older version of the firmware but it would be worth the hassle to have this fundamentally important feature. Some tips here:

 

[lambdapriest]

Aughhhhh thanks for the info @bill_delong but - I had to upgrade to use the module for my Mini-Zs - which were the catalyst for my purchase of the Noble in the first place. I'm not sure if it would still support them, even if I were able to flash the main unit down.

That... sucks. I wonder why they did that.

Too bad I spend my evenings driving RC cars instead of studying the dark arts of decompilation and reverse-engineering.

 

[lambdapriest]

Life update: Since I posted this thread, I've done the following:

• Stopped running every car other than my B6.4 with a 21.5t Tekin Gen 4 Spec-R in it
• Started taking notes on every run and keeping a log of every change I've made to the car, no matter how small
• Turned my throttle EPA down to 85% and have only increased it in 2-5% increments based on getting no-marshal 5-minute runs

I've gotten 3-4 no-marshal runs and my throttle EPA is currently at 97%. I expect that it'll be all the way up to 100% at the end of my next practice day. I've also been able to notice the changes from small adjustments, and only running one car has made it infinitely easier to keep up on maintenance - which is a lot less work, since I'm not crashing anywhere near as often.

It is becoming easier and easier to run the car for 5 minutes without cracking under the pressure of being on-pace for a "perfect run". I'm also learning how to stop panicking when I make a small mistake so that I can slow the car down, let it settle, and regain my composure before getting back up to speed - a lap that's 2 seconds off-pace from a bobble and careful recovery is still 28 seconds faster than losing half a minute from needing a marshal after getting the car stuck under a pipe or behind a ramp.

I'm feeling extremely confident and optimistic about my race program heading into the winter season. I think we can say, conclusively, that it was a skill issue!