Looking for something rugged I can build myself

[maney89]

Hey all,

I'm new to the forum (in case the post count wasn't a clue!) and RC in general but I got the bug for it because to cut a long story short, I had to repair an electric RC using components from another, and I really enjoyed the process.

Anyway, I found the process of tinkering and building/problem solving as much as I did the brief driving afterward hence the desire to look for a model which firstly I can build myself, and secondly I can upgrade/change parts as I go.

Now, the reason I'm looking for something quite rugged is twofold, firstly part of the reason I was doing the repair is I hit a wall ( ) and secondly I'm from a rural area with access to rough terrain and jumps and things.

My budget is a little on the small to start with at £200 ish (note, I already have a remote control - a spare from my repair work) with the hope of customizing it over time and improving it.

Can anybody firstly explain the pros and cons of going nitro over electric, and secondly point me in the direction of a suitable model/any ideas they have?

Also, as I'm so new, any "must read" guides or stickies etc would be fantastic

Thanks all!

 

[Alexander_0_1]

My vote is nitro or gas, if I knew anything about electric I might vote other wise!

 

[sur3fir3]

If you want a rugged little truck with 4wd you can check out the Savage XS SS kit. Just remember you still have to add a motor, servo, and esc. I just got a used XS and I must say its a decent truck. It is a bit small though. If you go larger I don't think you will find any brand names in your price range. you want to stay away from brands like redcat and Exceed. Stick to something that has support like hpi, losi, even traxxas.

What you get depends on the experinece you want as well. Nitro must be tuned, and unless you like wrenching on your rigs, it may not be a good idea to get a nitro for your first R/C. With electric you will pay more upfront, but it is cheaper in the long run. I used to run strictly nitro for a long time, until the brushless systems were cheap enough to afford, and more powerful than their nitro counterparts.

If you want to go nitro you really need to get an MT to handle really rough terrain. You also need to stick with 4wd which raises the cost. But for your first R/C the Savage XS will not disappoint. And If you decide to go nitro you might want to buy a well kept used roller and add the engine and servos yourself.. If you get used, the Savage X and XL are decent, your 1/8th scale truggies are good as well.

The main reason I recommend electric as most people's first RC, is with nitro there is a steep learning curve, while with electric its basically plug and play.

 

[goodgamer]

The main reason I recommend electric as most people's first RC, is with nitro there is a steep learning curve, while with electric its basically plug and play.

I agree I started out on nitro. It was way fun but hard to understand and get used to hard to mantain and loud. But you are rural so loud wouldn't be bad. If you like cleaning and figuring out how your car works and machanics go nitro. But if you want to go outside drive come back in out the car in the closet and watch TV, go electric.

 

[maney89]

Thanks for the help guys - the Savage XS SS certainly looks interesting and having read opinions so far I think battery is the way to go - I want something with decent speed and something that I can tinker with/upgrade/do maintenance on when I want, rather than something where its a necessity like it sounds like with nitro.

You'll have to forgive my ignorance as I fastidiously google away to work out the terminology as it comes along!

The savage looks a little above budget but I could stretch. If somebody was seeking a combination of speed (something I really liked about the brushless RC car I got to play with was its responsiveness and kick as soon as you even thought about hitting the trigger!), responsiveness (I'm a beginner remember, need something I can control!) and durability (there are a couple of dirt tracks designed for bikes etc I could potentially play with - if the car could handle it) what kind of motor, servo and esc combo would you recommend?

Additionally, I'm sure this is a very stupid question but if you don't ask you don't know - does battery power have any impact on speed or is it simply how long you can drive it for?

 

[sur3fir3]

Thanks for the help guys - the Savage XS SS certainly looks interesting and having read opinions so far I think battery is the way to go - I want something with decent speed and something that I can tinker with/upgrade/do maintenance on when I want, rather than something where its a necessity like it sounds like with nitro.

You'll have to forgive my ignorance as I fastidiously google away to work out the terminology as it comes along!

The savage looks a little above budget but I could stretch. If somebody was seeking a combination of speed (something I really liked about the brushless RC car I got to play with was its responsiveness and kick as soon as you even thought about hitting the trigger!), responsiveness (I'm a beginner remember, need something I can control!) and durability (there are a couple of dirt tracks designed for bikes etc I could potentially play with - if the car could handle it) what kind of motor, servo and esc combo would you recommend?

Additionally, I'm sure this is a very stupid question but if you don't ask you don't know - does battery power have any impact on speed or is it simply how long you can drive it for?

First I will answer your battery and speed question. (*edit* speed torque and rpm depend on motor and esc as well) Batteries are responsible for your speed, torque, and rpm. The limiting factor when it comes to ESCs ar their max amp load. When it comes to motors its all dependent on how many poles, kv rating, and can size. It works like so:

1 cell on a battery = 3.7 volts 2s = 7.4v 3s = 11.1v

To find out what rpm a motor will run at you multiply the kv rating of the motor by the voltage of your battery. this is the rpms it will produce when its under no load.

Your punch is controlled by the ESC and battery. The higher the amp rating on the ESC and battery the more power you have on tap.

Here is a simple formula that I have found to be commonly used in the RC Community to find the Maximun Constant Amps a Lipo-Battery is capable of sustaining.

Formula: (C-Rating) X (AH) = Maximum Constant Amp Draw

Now to use this formula you first need to convert your battery size from the common MilliAmpHours to AmpHours. A MilliAmp is One-Thousandth of an Amp. So here are some Examples of converting MilliAmpHours to AmpHours:

800mAH = .800AH

1350mAH = 1.350AH

2200mAH = 2.200AH

The converted number will be the “(AH)” in the formula. Now that you have your “(AH)” number, plug it in to the formula with the “C” rating number of your Battery and Calculate.

Here are some Examples:

(800mAH 10C Lipo Battery): .800AH X 10C = 8Amps Max Constant

(800mAH 20C Lipo Battery): .800AH X 20C = 16Amps Max Constant

(1350mAH 15C Lipo Battery): 1.350AH X 15C = 20.25Amps Max Constant

(1350mAH 30C Lipo Battery): 1.350AH X 30C = 40.50Amps Max Constant

(2200mAH 20C Lipo Battery): 2.200AH X 20C = 44.00Amps Max Constant

(2200mAH 30C Lipo Battery): 2.200AH X 30C = 66.00Amps Max Constant

This above is how batteries are related to power. The right motor combination with battery and gearing can produce great power.

Now if you are looking at the savage XS I would use a Tekin Rx8 and their pro4hd motor. but that is an expensive combo. if you want cheap you could go with a 180A hobby wing esc and a castle motor. I don't use castle or hobbywing, so you would need to ask someone in the electric rc section about which motor would be good for the xs. Now in my opinoin and I'm no expert I would spend more money on your esc and get a cheaper motor to start with. I know SMC just came out with modified motors you could try one of them. If you decide to use the SMC motor call them and ask which one they would recommend, their customer support is second to none. btw the SMC motors are only $50

and when it comes to batteries goto www.smc-racing.net. Their batteries are 1/2-1/3 of the price of other lipos, and the SMC batteries are much better.

I may sound like an SMC fanboy, but honestly they have been very good to me, and everyone I introduce to their products loves them.

forgot to add that the savage xs ss can easily go over 60mph with the right esc, motor, and batt. I used to be about speed, but since I now race on rc tracks, slow and on your feet is faster than fast and on your back

 

[Alexander_0_1]

Hell, sur3fir3 if your as right as you sound you might have just convinced me to get an electric rig also!

 

[sur3fir3]

Hell, sur3fir3 if your as right as you sound you might have just convinced me to get an electric rig also!

Ill put it like this. I came back into this hobby in about the end of 2011 and beginning of 2012, my first rig back was a savage XL. Then I got an LST2 roller cheap and decided to try brushless. Once i was converted to the dark side, there was no coming back. Now all my rigs are brushless and haven't ran a nitro since.

 

[Alexander_0_1]

No way am I going full electric!, I've invested to much in nitro products. Although you've got me interested enough to look into a savage xs that can backflip on command.

 

[sur3fir3]

I know what you mean about investing in nitro I have 2 gal of fuel, a couple glow ignitors i think 2-3 pull starts some air filters.. hrmm what else do I have left over.. some carbs a small block .15 but I soon realized that with electric its cheaper. 1 $50 battery will last at least a year if cared for properly.. while I have used 2 gal of nitro in a weekend. not to mention if you get a tekin esc and motor combo and you care for it right, I've seen 2 year old Rx8s and 1 year old motors, run fine. and run times aren't too much of an issue anymore.

I still like nitro, I just dont have the funds to run it all the time like I can my brushless setups. The only thing I replace on my brushless rigs are bearings and worn/broken parts. When we used to use brushed motors nitro made more sense, because you had to rebuild motors after each race day. Now that they last a long time, its not so true anymore.

 

[maney89]

First I will answer your battery and speed question. (*edit* speed torque and rpm depend on motor and esc as well) Batteries are responsible for your speed, torque, and rpm. The limiting factor when it comes to ESCs ar their max amp load. When it comes to motors its all dependent on how many poles, kv rating, and can size. It works like so:

1 cell on a battery = 3.7 volts 2s = 7.4v 3s = 11.1v

To find out what rpm a motor will run at you multiply the kv rating of the motor by the voltage of your battery. this is the rpms it will produce when its under no load.

Your punch is controlled by the ESC and battery. The higher the amp rating on the ESC and battery the more power you have on tap.

Here is a simple formula that I have found to be commonly used in the RC Community to find the Maximun Constant Amps a Lipo-Battery is capable of sustaining.

Formula: (C-Rating) X (AH) = Maximum Constant Amp Draw

Now to use this formula you first need to convert your battery size from the common MilliAmpHours to AmpHours. A MilliAmp is One-Thousandth of an Amp. So here are some Examples of converting MilliAmpHours to AmpHours:

800mAH = .800AH

1350mAH = 1.350AH

2200mAH = 2.200AH

The converted number will be the “(AH)” in the formula. Now that you have your “(AH)” number, plug it in to the formula with the “C” rating number of your Battery and Calculate.

Here are some Examples:

(800mAH 10C Lipo Battery): .800AH X 10C = 8Amps Max Constant

(800mAH 20C Lipo Battery): .800AH X 20C = 16Amps Max Constant

(1350mAH 15C Lipo Battery): 1.350AH X 15C = 20.25Amps Max Constant

(1350mAH 30C Lipo Battery): 1.350AH X 30C = 40.50Amps Max Constant

(2200mAH 20C Lipo Battery): 2.200AH X 20C = 44.00Amps Max Constant

(2200mAH 30C Lipo Battery): 2.200AH X 30C = 66.00Amps Max Constant

This above is how batteries are related to power. The right motor combination with battery and gearing can produce great power.

Now if you are looking at the savage XS I would use a Tekin Rx8 and their pro4hd motor. but that is an expensive combo. if you want cheap you could go with a 180A hobby wing esc and a castle motor. I don't use castle or hobbywing, so you would need to ask someone in the electric rc section about which motor would be good for the xs. Now in my opinoin and I'm no expert I would spend more money on your esc and get a cheaper motor to start with. I know SMC just came out with modified motors you could try one of them. If you decide to use the SMC motor call them and ask which one they would recommend, their customer support is second to none. btw the SMC motors are only $50

and when it comes to batteries goto www.smc-racing.net. Their batteries are 1/2-1/3 of the price of other lipos, and the SMC batteries are much better.

I may sound like an SMC fanboy, but honestly they have been very good to me, and everyone I introduce to their products loves them.

forgot to add that the savage xs ss can easily go over 60mph with the right esc, motor, and batt. I used to be about speed, but since I now race on rc tracks, slow and on your feet is faster than fast and on your back

You're a genius, thanks alot for that. From my understanding, the the key factor in the battery is the ampage, so somebody wanting the highest speed from your examples would go with a 2200 mAH 30c libo battery? What kind of speed potential would that carry? I guess alot comes down to weight.

I've been browsing around the SMC website and they look quite good for somebody in my position - on something of a budget but still making good products for the price.

Heres a question, firstly is using their most powerful battery a good idea with the model? I'm eyeing up these simply in the interest of speed: http://www.smc-racing.net/index.php?route=product/category&path=67_78

I may give them a call, explain I am new, the items I'm looking for and try to get some advice for a good battery and motor combo from them.

Unless I'm mistaken, the only item I'd need from there would be an Esc, is there any info you can help with that or do you think thats a question for smc customer support? They sound like quite an influential item within the system.

Could anybody possibly briefly explain how the esc and motor work together to power and control the car? I'm keen to understand the vehicle to make the right choices. One of the nice things is knowing I can always upgrade in the future!

Edit: Just remembered I need a servo too - these look to be relatively inexpensive items, but do any become particularly recommended?

Also, if a mod is reading this, perhaps it'd be better moved to the electric rc section now?

 

[sur3fir3]

You're a genius, thanks alot for that. From my understanding, the ampage is the key factor in the battery is the ampage, so somebody wanting the highest speed from your examples would go with a 2200 mAH 30c libo battery?

I've been browsing around the SMC website and they look quite good for somebody in my position - on something of a budget but still making good products for the price.

Heres a question, firstly is using their most powerful battery a good idea with the model? I'm eyeing up these simply in the interest of speed: http://www.smc-racing.net/index.php?route=product/product&path=67_96&product_id=175 0- how would the speed compare with the 30C?

I may give them a call, explain I am new, the items I'm looking for and try to get some advice for a good battery and motor combo from them.

Unless I'm mistaken, the only item I'd need from there would be an Esc, is there any info you can help with that or do you think thats a question for smc customer support?

Could anybody possibly briefly explain how the esc and motor work together to power and control the car? I'm keen to understand the vehicle to make the right choices. One of the nice things is knowing I can always upgrade in the future!

Get the highest C and most MAH rating that will fit in the rig you choose. really I wouldn't get anything under 40C 4200mah. I would get the 40C 5100s especially since they are only $5 more. Now I will attempt to answer your question about how esc's and motors work. I am not an expert on them, and If I get something wrong please someone correct me.

What ESC you get really dictates what you can do with your motor. For instance, the RX8, you have custom throttle profiles, timing, boost, dual mode, power cutoffs, braking profiles, drag brake, and a host of other features that let you really customize how your motor reacts to different situations. Castle has some, but also realize castle is not sensored, Tekin is. The one thing castle had going for them over teking was they have data logging, but that is now supported in Tekin's new Gen2 line. With the dual mode that the RX8 supports it give you the best of both worlds, where it uses sensored mode at slow RPM to smooth out acceleration and torque, then at high speeds it switches to unsensored to get all the torque and power the motor has on tap. When it comes to motors I am still learning myself but I will explain what I know. You have 2 pole and 4 pole motors, I don't know why but 4 pole = more toque for the same kv. Now the higher the KV the less torque you have which means your gearing can't be as aggressive, but your RPMs will be higher with the same battery on both. When you go lower in kv you can gear more aggressively, but won't achieve as high rpms. When you get into brusless motors there also the winding of the motor you need to take into account. I haven't made it there in my studies, but different windings change how a motor responds.

For example on my lst2 I run a 1550kv with a 34t pinion and 62t spur, on 6s. Now If I ran the 1350 with 6s I could drop the spur a few teeth and raise the pinion a few teeth. But the problem there is they dont make spurs smaller than 62, and i have yet to see a mod1 metal pinion larger than 34t.

If you are going to get the xs ss, you don't need an RX8, My point is I would rather buy an esc that is overkill that won't overheat on my rig than try to push the xs around on a 1/10th scale esc, unless you get a race oriented 1/10th esc. If you want to go cheap on the esc you can check out the vxl setup from traxxas, and then save up for the good esc for when the vxl dies. Many 1/10th scale 4x4 short course drivers use the rx8, and other 1/8th scale escs.

I am pretty sure you can, but make sure you ask smc which one of their motors would be best for 2s and 3s applications. you would use 2s for bashing and etc, and then use 3s for speed runs and the like.

And about SMC they have been around for many years, and most people still swear by their $120 packs from people like thunder power and pro tek. My personal experience, is as follows. I have purchased a few different brands of lipos, and have been happy with some and pissed with others. I tried turnigy packs which are about the same price as the SMCs, and they are good, until after 40 or so cycles, then they really lose their punch. I had some venoms, and they are decent, and I liked them but they were also over $100 for 1 3s 65c 5000mah pack, and I had some of those. Then I tried Thunder power, 2s 65C 5000mah, I am unsure if it was me or the battery, but I started noticing some minor swelling after a few months. After this one day I stumbled on a SMC thread on another board. Decided what the heck $50 for a 2s 60C 5500mah I can't go wrong. This battery has out performed almost every other battery I've tried or my friends have tried. Since I race blinky(17.5T motor) class my battery is very important to me, and I was quite impressed. I just put in my 2nd order to them from 2 3s 5100mah 40C @ $40 each, and I will let you know how well they power my lst2 around. After my experiences with smc customer support always being there to help if I need it. (They are even putting on non standard connectors on my order) I just felt everyone really needs to stop paying so much for batteries and try them out.\

Just saw your servo edit. In my bashers I don't run top of the line stuff, unless its esc or motor. For servos on my racers i always use savox, on my bashers I used to buy them from cheapservoman on ebay, but he's not listing anymore... anyone know of a good cheap hit torque servo for the savage xs?

 

[Alexander_0_1]

Ok now that I'm seriously looking for a savage xs ss kit, what's the the biggest battery that will fit....I don't have one yet.

 

[sur3fir3]

just keep it under these dimensions 143mm in length, 31mm in height and 51mm. I also wanted to say i sent a message over to smc, they said they will get back to me on which motor would be best suited for the xs for 2s and 3s applications. Also realize these motors are new, you might want to wait until that first shipment comes in and see what people report about the motors. in the mean time you could always get a cheap stock motor like the vektor 4000kv, they regularly sell for about 50-60 bucks on ebay. I know that the vektor has some overheating issues.

I did some research on the castle side of things, and found this http://www.castlecreations.com/products/sct-race-pro.html this setup is perfect for 2s and 3s operation and the mmp is a 1/10th scale esc. I would pick the MMP or the RX8 for the esc. Tekin also has their gen2 1/10th scale esc that would work. Unless you want to go real cheap and get the hobbywing esc at 99. It all depends on what you want to spend. Its your choice with these escs, any of these above will work. and the rx8 is overkill, but if you eventually get into an 1/8th scale electric you will already have an esc, and you can then get another for the xs.

 

[Alexander_0_1]

I guess I want good quality stuff, even if I gotta pay more for it!, I think it's better to buy quality the first time around.

---------- Post added at 2:21 AM ---------- Previous post was at 2:18 AM ----------

I've seen youtube vids of guys driving their XS through water, is it waterproof, are ESC, and motors water resistant. And servos do standard servos fit!

---------- Post added at 2:24 AM ---------- Previous post was at 2:21 AM ----------

What Is 3s?

 

[sur3fir3]

I guess I want good quality stuff, even if I gotta pay more for it!, I think it's better to buy quality the first time around.

the one thing about the rx8 is it does not like water at all. so if you run in wet conditions neither of the tekins are for you. Just go with the castle setup. check out this video though [ame="www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3Lj45VF5Q0"]www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3Lj45VF5Q0[/ame]

 

[Alexander_0_1]

So if I contact the person squirrel got his TVPs or FLM could I make the XS longer to accommodate larger motor/batteries.....would havering such a mod allow me to cram more power into it?....cause it seems like its a simple length problem.

 

[sur3fir3]

the tvps he talks about are for the full size savage flux, not the xs. I am going to match up my rx8 and see if it can fit. OK well i measured the rx8, and until I get another one, I am not 100% that it will fit with no mods, but here is a link to where squirrel has on on his xs. in his videos he shows how to install all the hop ups. if you get the ss kit follow these guides and you will have one bad ass truck. here is the link.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWsOFM3bZs4

 

[sur3fir3]

update on the smc motors, you can't run 3s on them, so just get a different one. just make sure its 540 size, 4 pole is preferred somewhere in the 3300-4000kv, I will do some research on different motors as I am getting one for myself.. and I am probably not getting a tekin motor(unless I get one used), as my savage xs is what I loan out to people who have never driven before, to drive it on the track on get a feel for it. So besides the rx8 its probably going to be cheap stuff, but i will buy the rx8 used. one thing about tekin I like is if you break the rx8, and your not even the first owner, its a max of something around $130 to get a complete replacement. Their warranty is only 120days though. I will probably get a used tekin pro4 and rx8, and just change the bearings in the motor and check the rotor. I am still going to look for other motors that would work.

Oh and earlier i think Alexander mentioned doing backflips. you really don't want to do that to often its hell on the drive train. When you get your xs and everything put together i recommend you lower the power through either hotwire for tekin or castle link for castle. set it to about 50% to start, and get a feel for the motor. these combos can produce decent torque, and can easily melt a spur or destroy a diff. throttle control is important with these rigs. If you are doing speed runs, don't do it where there are any parked cars or curbs if you can help it, because eventually you will find something hard to hit. When your going 40+ in something this small the question isn't if its going to break, the question is what will break. One upgrade no one mentions are front bumpers from t-bone racing at http://t-bone-racing.net/Savage-XS-Flux-c339/ This item will save your a-arms time and time again.

Now I do want to list some things that are negative about the xs. Many people report it hard to control in the air. I am going to play with some stick weights and see if I can fix that. the issue is how small it is and how much weight it has. just take it easy on the jumps until you learn how to land. If you don't know already when you are in the air the throttle brings your rear down, brakes bring the front down, turning left leans you right and turning right leans left. Another issue many report are heat problems with the stock motor and esc included with the rtr version. which is why I say get the kit and your own electronics, because the stock steering servo is crap too. As far as what parts break easy, get aluminum rear hubs, and the ball cups pop off alot. so i would replace the turnbuckles with http://www.amainhobbies.com/product_info.php/cPath/1_24_366/products_id/51009/n/Lunsford-Punisher-1-3-8-Titanium-Turnbuckles-4 and the ballcups with http://www.amainhobbies.com/product_info.php/cPath/1_24_1379/products_id/222111/n/Lunsford-Super-Duty-48mm-Ball-Cups-4 and make sure you have the adjustable turbuckles here http://www.amainhobbies.com/product_info.php/cPath/1_25_1459_2089/products_id/216153/n/HPI-Adjustable-Upper-Arm-Set

stay away from most of the aluminum parts. I will use rear hubs, steering assembly, and maybe front c hubs and steering blocks. The rest I will keep plastic.

 

[Tmaxxkid94]

Okay clearly your like me and love the upgrade/tinker process and you want something rugged. My dad bought a .15 pro tmaxx TEN years ago put it to hell and back thru clay water mud snow every terrain possible. It sat for 6 years and he gave it to me i took the entire thing apart amd cleaned every ounce of it and it runs like brand new. Best truck for the money. So my advice go on craigslist find an old tmaxx preferably the 2.5 for more power if it wont run try to stay at $100 and worst case scenario you swap the 2.5 for the 3.3 for another $100 and you have a bad ass machine for $200