Savage XL 5.9 Issues - Break In - Idle Mess

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amithus

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Minneapolis MN
RC Driving Style
  1. Bashing
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Hello everyone. I ran the search feature and have read most posts in this forum topic and I still don't feel like I've answered my question so I'm going to post it. Sorry if this is beating a dead horse but here we go.

Day 1: Picked up a Savage XL 5.9 the other day and brought it home. What a pain to start. The rotostart won't even turn over the engine, so I finally break down and hook up the starter shaft to my drill (I'm sure this is a no-no but I did it) and set the clutch pretty low (setting 9 on a 24 position clutch and put it at low speed) Tried for about an hour to get it to start and finally got it to pop but it won't start without blipping the throttle. I should say that before putting the drill on it, I did clear it for a flood by removing the glow plug and turning the engine over upside down, a few drops came out, replaced plug still no go on the rotostart. (Yes it is charged) Ran the break in procedure as said in the instruction manual but had to put some throttle trim on to keep it running. After that it got late so put it up for the night however I did get all the way through the suggested break in procedures. Put some after run in it and called it a day.

Day 2: Previous night I read all I could find on this thing. Watched you tube videos, read this forum and took the air cleaner off and tried getting a 1mm gap in the idle set screw but the carb locks up right around 1mm. Backed it off until it smoothly opened / closed on it's own power and set all needles back to factory trim on HSN and LSN. Again, rotostart won't turn this thing over, back to the drill. It still won't start without blipping the throttle and revving it a few times to keep it going then I hit the break and it doesn't instantly die but I can't hold the break for more than 10 seconds without it just puttering out. Tried increasing the idle screw again at 1/8 turn increments and could not get this thing to start without blipping throttle still. Finally got to the point where the carb locked up again and figured maybe the thing is just running too rich on the LSN. Backed the idle screw back off so the carb will function smoothly and leaned out the LSN 1/8 turns until it would start a bit easier but still need to blip throttle a few times to get it to start. Idle, not really. On a block I can get it to start, run without touching the throttle for a while but eventually it just dies again. So with my son watching and dying to see this thing actually move we said F-it and put it down and drove it a bit. Got it to the point where I could run it up and down the street a few times then pull it in, do the 1/8 clockwise turn on the HSN as instructed in the manual and felt like I was actually getting somewhere. Took it to the point to where it wasn't producing much smoke then backed it back off 1/8 so it produces good smoke but still runs OK. Now for the LSN. Started messing with that and almost got it to wheelie but it's so un-reliable that I can't idle it well without worrying that it's going to die on us, good throttle response, I know we can tune it more to get that awesome power we see others get but I want to actually see this thing idle, without moving, for lets say, 30 seconds / 1 minute.

Am I asking too much from a new engine with 6 tanks through it? I would say that out of those 6 tanks, at least 1 tank was just spinning the starter and a brownish oil coming out of the pipe but it not running. I've cleared it for flooding several times, checked the glow plug and it's red hot.

I'm new to nitro. I have a 1/5th scale but that's a whole other story. I understand that thing. I'm just having a lot of issues lately with this 5.9. I mean, I'm in love with this truck, it's huge, it supposedly has power and awesome torque but I just want it to start like the guys I see on youtube. Turn the rotostart a few times, starts up and bam, idle.

Suggestions, comments, flames, whatever it takes to get this thing to run right. I was thinking of replacing the carb / asking for a new one from HPI as this thing is not even 72 hours old. I've even toyed with a different engine but there is NO WAY I'm giving up unless told to do so by someone with experience.

I'm not an idiot, I can follow instructions, I'm a grown adult with patience so as far as I can tell, I'm not doing anything really wrong I'm just mis-guided, but my wife says that all the time. I know no 2 engines are the same but about how far would you say you have to lean this thing out from factory to get it to run nicely? 1 turn, 2 turns total?

HELP!!!! (Sorry for the long post, I'm in IT and I can type) :)
 
Since it seems like your on the same plug since break in try a new one. Just because it glows doesn't mean its good. Running rich tends to ruin a plug which is normal. I always change plugs after break-in, saves u a future headache.

Possibly an air leak between tank and Carb, Idle gap too small, LSN too lean...

an air leak would prevent fuel from reaching Carb under enough.pressure at idle which could explain why it runs under throttle but seems to lack performance and dies at idle.

Idle gap too small will run fine under throttle since it opens up but won't idle or won't idle very long at all as its starving the engine.

LSN too lean will again rob performance and mess up your idle. LSN works opposite of the HSN for idling. Leaning hsn will often idle u up while a rich lsn will also idle u up so don't get em confused, but it sounds like u did it right.

Being hard to turn over is normal too, a good thing really. A fresh engine has a tight pinch which is what makes it so hard to start, so people often warm the engine before starting, a hair dryer works so I've heard. Makes it easier to move that piston past TDC.

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I will give you a huge piece of advice. call hpi get them to send you a replacement. sell the replacement brand new on ebay for about 100$ then buy a LRP.
 
Well that's an option but it won't help him learn to tune or troubleshoot...

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The 5.9 is known to have tons of issues. I had one.. its was hell. Trust me its much better to just buy a better one. HPI will replace the 5.9 pretty much no questions asked, if you give good reason. Its alot easier to teach tuning when they have a decent engine. The 5.9 is a POS plain and simple I've known a few people to get them to work, but thats after sealing it all, resetting needles, etc etc. If he really wants to learn on a 5.9 thats fine, but I really think the better advice is to get a decent engine first.
 
Yes I've seen quite a few be finicky as well but it sire sounds like this is his first nitro...and let's try to remember our first nitro, I remember mine. I read forums, books, videos, and thought...I got this! .....not.

It took me a solid week to fully understand my first one, to learn the ins and outs, then it took me a month to become confident in turning needles on any nitro.

Yes I agree it may be a bad apple, but I thought my first one was when it was simply my lack of knowledge and experience. I also agree IF he can get it replaced for free why the hell not lol... but I also think he needs to put a little more time and effort into it before giving up, just as I did.

Btw I have to somewhat disagree about 5.9 being junk. I've.seen many run strong for a long time and they are a beast when tuned right! While I've not owned one I have had the pleasure of working with them and on them and I kinda of liked em. Harder to tune than any of mine yep, pain in the ass yep, but what better way to learn?

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---------- Post added at 1:06 AM ---------- Previous post was at 1:04 AM ----------

Oh and I didn't say other engines aren't better or a better idea to own, there are many better but that entails him spending $ that may not be necessary so spending money should always be the last resort. We simply do not know if its a bad engine or a bad tune....

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---------- Post added at 1:09 AM ---------- Previous post was at 1:06 AM ----------

One last thing...do you have a temp guage? Have you checked engine temps to make sure it hasn't overheated? This is important in the nitro world!

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Yes I've seen quite a few be finicky as well but it sire sounds like this is his first nitro...and let's try to remember our first nitro, I remember mine. I read forums, books, videos, and thought...I got this! .....not.

It took me a solid week to fully understand my first one, to learn the ins and outs, then it took me a month to become confident in turning needles on any nitro.

Yes I agree it may be a bad apple, but I thought my first one was when it was simply my lack of knowledge and experience. I also agree IF he can get it replaced for free why the hell not lol... but I also think he needs to put a little more time and effort into it before giving up, just as I did.

Btw I have to somewhat disagree about 5.9 being junk. I've.seen many run strong for a long time and they are a beast when tuned right! While I've not owned one I have had the pleasure of working with them and on them and I kinda of liked em. Harder to tune than any of mine yep, pain in the ass yep, but what better way to learn?

Sent from my SCH-I500 using Tapatalk 2

---------- Post added at 1:06 AM ---------- Previous post was at 1:04 AM ----------

Oh and I didn't say other engines aren't better or a better idea to own, there are many better but that entails him spending $ that may not be necessary so spending money should always be the last resort. We simply do not know if its a bad engine or a bad tune....

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The 5.9 XL was the rig i returned to RC with. I wish someone had told me from the beginning about the 5.9 I wrestled with it for a few months before I switched. Once I got the different engine its was like night and day. My recommendation is from personal experience more than anything. I just think before he opens its and seals it and etc he should know that everyone recognizes that the 5.9 has issues.
 
Yeah it can have issues...not all do. But I just think a little more time with it is in order before shelling another $200. I want people to learn not be discouraged. This is what happens in my area, people lack the patience and I end up tuning rigs for people. I think...give it another couple days, try try try...if after following my steps.above nothing works, then yes take another route.

5.9 is a pain as I agreed, but again once tuned they are mean. This is why I push 3.3s on beginners, soooo easy to tune!

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---------- Post added at 1:20 AM ---------- Previous post was at 1:17 AM ----------

I think between the two of us he will get it taken care of one way or another lol.

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Thank You All!

It looks like I stumbled on one of those forum bombs! :)

I appreciate all your input and I will do as you said and give it a few more shots. I'm about a stubborn as a brick so I'll stick with it over the weekend where I have more time rather than being a few hours after work / dinner. If by Sunday I'm still stuck then I'll look into a new engine, which, as stated before, ran across my mind. Even though I've never owned a nitro my buddy bought a crappy exceed 1/8th scale for his first car about a few days before I bought this and that thing is up and running fine. Neither of us have nitro experience. Needless to say I was a bit disappointed when the HPI was "running like @$$" as my buddy put it. You know, "$200 and at least mine runs..." blah blah blah. I want this thing to pull his diff apart next time I see him.

Anyway, back to it. So you think I can actually get a replacement from HPI? What can I do out of your list without voiding the warranty? Can I seal it as you told me to? What is "too far" or something to avoid if I ultimately may warranty the engine? I just don't think the idle screw is opening enough before seizing the carb. I have a feeler gauge and no matter where you measure it from, 1mm is a stretch at max.

Yes I have a temp gun but haven't used it yet as I can still touch the heatsink and not burn myself so I know it's not over 250deg, however next time I post, I'll post results on temp and such.

Also, is the whole starting with a drill thing bad? I know the rotostart has a failsafe in it however I am guessing that setting your drill clutch pretty far down (I have a 18v lipo Milwaukee) will do the same thing and at least the battery lasts longer.

So what I've heard you all say is:
1. Change glow plug. I've heard to use a "hot plug" but then also read this is not necessary, please advise.
2. Seal the carb body and check hose lines, how do I seal the engine and if I do this, do I void the warranty?
3. Temp gun it.

Also, what do you guys think about the idle screw thing I described? I just don't feel that it's able to get to the 1mm gap it's looking for without seizing the carb. Is this a call to HIP to get a replacement?

If all else fails, new engine. I'm willing and able to do this but it really does suck that such an expensive truck has an engine that is worthless??? Also, I've been reading and again, it seems like the question of engines for this thing is pretty controversial so I've been looking at the LRP as it sounds like it's easier to tune. Any other engines that will wheelie this truck and give it decent top end? i'm not a racer but my son and I want to see this thing wheelie down the street on demand. :)
 
Well, an LRP 30, 32 or picco 28 will do just that. The picco will probably last the longest, but the LRP's are pretty easy to tune.

I don't know about the HPI 5.9, but 6 tanks is by no means "broken in" for my LRP's. By tank 6/7, it's just getting to where you are with being able to sort of run. After about 3/4 of a gallon, my LRP28's tune much easier, idle better/longer and start much easier.

Also, I didn't notice/read anywhere (is late and I'm tired, so sort of started skimming after the first few sentences) where you heated your engine up with a hair drier or heat gun prior to starting. This is a good idea to do for a brand new engine just to make your life easier and to save your OWB from grenading. Also, backing the glowplug out 1/4 turn while starting helps relieve some compression to make it easier. Once it's running, you tighten it back up. Both of which are things that I do with new engines (regardless of brand/model/purpose).

If it's still being stupidly fussy after 15-20 tanks, then you may have some serious issues. But, to be on the safe side, I'd pull the engine out of the truck, take off the starter housing and make sure the screws are tight on the back plate. Also check that the head bolts are tight. Loosen the carb bolt and push down hard on the carb then tighten it back up.

I personally take apart every brand new engine out of the box, clean the internals with DA, lube with after run oil, seal them with RTV and let the RTV cure overnight before a drop of nitro goes into it. There is a lot of aluminum crud inside new crankcases that fouls plugs, scratches pistons and is generally unpleasant for the bearings. Also, by sealing them up with RTV, your removing "air leak" as a problem while your breaking it in.

Sealing thread with photos:
https://www.rcnitrotalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=60832#sealingnitro
 
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Start small...change the plug. As I said I do this after a break in regardless, always have.

You're saying you can't get to a 1mm gap on the Carb? Be sure when adjusting your idle screw you slowly slide your Carb open with one hand and adjust it with the other, this should have been mentioned before and it often an oversight! Not doing so can trash the idle needle as your pushing the metal Carb against the tip of the needle, I've done it...and have ruined needles. on that note this could even be the issue....remove the needle and make sure its not all tweaked on the end. Partially my fault for not mentioning this...

The 5.9 is not "junk". Its finicky but its a good engine when tuned. They have issues yeah but they all do. Every engine is different and some harder to tune than others, some are bad out of the box but that's rare.

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---------- Post added at 2:50 AM ---------- Previous post was at 2:42 AM ----------

Yep use a hot plug. I always run hot plugs in my rigs. But what worries.me is you can touch your engine without getting burned. It should be hot, and during break-in you want around 200° F. After tuning you want to be between 260-280. Its an internal combustion engine....they all work the same way. Engines perform best at specific temps so too cold or too hot and your not getting the optimal performance, that's a mechanics rule of thumb as well as a hobbiests.

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---------- Post added at 2:55 AM ---------- Previous post was at 2:50 AM ----------

How to seal:
https://www.rcnitrotalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=72487


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---------- Post added at 3:05 AM ---------- Previous post was at 2:55 AM ----------

Oh and as far as starting with a drill...well it may be harmless and probably is. As I mentioned the "pinch". This is the friction between the piston and top of the sleeve. These engines don't have rings as gas engines do, they rely on a tight tolerance between the two to seal/provide compression as sleeves are brass, a malleable metal. It conforms to the piston during breaking thus the importance of a proper break in. They are extremely tight before break in and as your science teacher should have explained heat causes expansion and that sleeve will.expand a bit it warmed up by say...a hair dryer lol, or better by an engine warmer which u can buy.

Damage I suppose could occur during break in as that massive friction puts a great stress on the piston which is not malleable, the crank, or the crank shaft, but they are made to be broken in so its unlikely, but theoretically possible. This and the last paragraph are why following the break in procedure is so important.

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It's Getting There

So it's getting there. I replaced the glow plug (thank you for that suggestion synnyzter) and again I set it all back to factory except now I set the idle screw to 1mm regardless of the sticking. It wasn't locked up (the carb) but it was "crunchy" and even though I figured it wouldn't matter, it did and come to find out, once the engine warmed up it acted well. Next I started leaning out the HSN and WOW :whhooo: this thing really came on. I had some issues with idle for a while but once the engine and everything was saturated with heat it purred like a kitten. I was able to do the WOT passes I hear so much about then bring it in to change a needle setting and not have it die. Applying full breaks worked well and no engine RPM / dying issues. I just started with the LSN when it started to get late. My wife also bought some new living room furniture so of course I had to drag in a sectional with a few buddies so that killed the night. I did pop another glow plug though. I checked the temp and it was fine in the range you told me 268 deg and producing good smoke and not doing any of the things that I've read are potential signs of too lean.

Now I didn't get around to sealing the case however I did also follow the instructions to check all screws holding the heat sink on (they were fine) and I re-seated the carb body to the crank case.

Now that I'm in "maintenance" mode with this thing though I did notice that the spur gear has a "wobble" in it. I'm about to remove that from the truck body and see what's up with that. It's at a 1.5mm variance.

I also figured out that while driving it, the breaks became unresponsive or at least unresponsive to where it was dangerous to drive. I brought it back in and removed the 3 metal pads and noticed a bunch of goop on them. I need to find an instructional on how to remove the dogbone that connects the driveline to the back wheels as I would love to pull these and clean them properly. I did clean up the metal pads though and got that all together.

All in all, I got another 4 tanks through this thing and it's acting much better thanks to you guys and your suggestions. Thank you for all your experience and knowledge and willingness to assist a newbie. All in all I can see the potential with this thing.

Thanks guys! I'm sure I'll have more questions for you but as it stands right now, I'm going to go out and bash this thing around today now that I feel it's actually working.
 
Just try to clean the engine really well near the seams so you can see if any oil is seeping out. If you see oil, then I'd definitely tear it down and seal it up proper.

Otherwise, sounds like your well on your way to get it broken in better. I have found on even my cheapest big blocks that they take a gallon to really settle down and respond well to tune, be less fussy in general.
 
Glad to hear its coming together for ya. Nitro does take patience, but the reward makes it all worth it. We'll be here when ya have more questions. Enjoy your awesome rig!

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Frankly I'll say that I bought the XL 5.9 a little over a month ago. I went through Freaking HE Double Hockey sticks getting 6 tanks through the thing. Now I'm almost through my first gallon of 20% and what I've been through? attempted to tune it SEVERAL Times spent two or three weeks it would run for a short time then choke if it wasn't one thing it was another won't start onboard battery stopped charging generally worst experience ever...

Now it's broke in, I've learned how the thing runs and I look forward to having a different nitro that might run better but until then the 5.9 is a lot of fun.
 
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Boy were you guys right. So now that I've got about 3/4 of a gallon through this thing it's really calmed down. Not to resurrect a dead thread but I wanted anyone reading to know just run it after break in and don't even worry about tuning it right until you get at least a half a gallon through this thing. I've been very successful with getting it to run and idle nicely and now that I've worked on tuning and checking with a temp gun afterword I do notice huge power and it's really fun. Thanks again everyone for your assistance.
 
Boy were you guys right. So now that I've got about 3/4 of a gallon through this thing it's really calmed down. Not to resurrect a dead thread but I wanted anyone reading to know just run it after break in and don't even worry about tuning it right until you get at least a half a gallon through this thing. I've been very successful with getting it to run and idle nicely and now that I've worked on tuning and checking with a temp gun afterword I do notice huge power and it's really fun. Thanks again everyone for your assistance.

Awesome, always good to hear! Enjoy that nitro now go out there and break something! :)

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