Nitro Engine Repair

[Littlemotor]

As I have stated before, I've taken the engine to people who have way more nitro experience than I do and even they can't figure out what's going on nor get the engine to run, which is telling. I've never doubted user error wasn't part of the problem and I've tried damn near everything recommended to me by those who know this part of the hobby from front to back and still same issue.

Just because something is considered top notch or best of the best, doesn't mean everything is always perfect. I'm a car nut and a car collector waited 4 years for a Jesko hyper car and within 80 miles of delivery, the car broke down. Same collector has another hyper car from the same manufacturer and it has never properly worked and these are multi million dollar cars.

I made this thread to see if anyone knew of anyone who works on nitro engines, so I could send it in to another set of eyes and see if they can figure out what's going on.

LHS guys aren’t the end all be all when it comes to nitro RC. Just saying.

I said that it COULD be the engine, but that I doubt highly that’s the case. “Hypercars” are literally KNOWN for those issues, so it’s not exactly a fair comparison imo.. I’ve been building racecars for most of my life.

Again, I’m just trying to help YOU get it sorted. The last guy I helped out was ready to sell off EVERYTHING, and walk away. Persistence, the desire to solve problems, and exhibit patience are all requirements in nitro RC.. I’d be more than happy to get on the phone with you, or do video calls if you’re willing to give it another go.

 

[gregosh]

I was in the same boat with a cheap motor I bought couldn’t get it to run to save my life and with help from little motor and others on this forum I have gotten to the point where I’m able to tune maybe not the best but good enough to run. My issue was a bad carburetor and when I got a replacement carburetor I was able to get the motor to run. Be patient mine it’s a learning process and like everything else in life you will always learn but you have to stick with it. Sounds like you got a lot of money into a nice motor so don’t you want to enjoy it?

 

[ohsnap]

"I made this thread to see if anyone knew of anyone who works on nitro engines, so I could send it in to another set of eyes and see if they can figure out what's going on."

You've already contacted EBMods and I personally don't have a Rolodex full of names to provide you.

Another set of eyes:
Take a video or pics and post them.
One of the dilemmas in today's world is that there are less nitro resources than before and with whom would I trust my engine?
Another dilemma being how "close" the Internet makes us, and yet how physically removed we are from one another.
It would be one thing if we were neighbors and we could examine it, head out and conduct some tests.
But all of us are in different parts of the country, so we're trying to help the best we can, given the circumstances and available information.

"Just because something is considered top notch or best of the best, doesn't mean everything is always perfect."
No doubt. I've flushed metal shavings out of new/unused engines.
Something simple like a torn o-ring (ie air leak) can ruin your day.

 

[gregosh]

Not to point out the obvious, but….. A lot of times it’s not so much what you say; but how you say it.. IE- “I’d like an EBIS, and dyno tune sir.”.. Problem(s) solved.

If I were to call, or email an engine guru who provides high end nitro race engine services, and tell him 73 reasons why I think my ONLY high end race engine is cursed, or defective; I can tell you that without ANY doubt-he will not want anything to do with that motor, or me as a customer.

OS Speed, and FX Royal Engines, are arguably THE most high quality, nitro race engines available. You’ve never owned one, let alone broken one in. Unfortunately, the fact that you can’t make it past “4-5 starts”, let alone the first idle tank tells the moral majority of us who have literal DECADES of experience breaking in uber tight nitro race engines, that it’s likely NOT the engine… I’m absolutely positive that’s not at all what you WANT to hear, but if you simply stood beside me and watched the process of what I go through to break one in; you’d understand that it’s VERY common for someone who’s never done it before to have the exact experience that you are having. Now I absolutely will agree that nobody has an absolutely spotless track record, and things can happen, but in this particular case, and with this particular engine; I seriously doubt that the engine is at fault. This is NOT a jab, nor any kind of “attack” on you-it’s just an explanation of my opinion on the situation.

I literally JUST helped a fella in your shoes EXACTLY-though he did have SOME nitro experience at least (20yrs ago), and he was having ALL the exact same issues as you are. He’s just bought his FIFTH OS Speed race engine in less than two months, and has been bitten by the nitro bug HARD since I helped him get sorted out. He’s also a member here. Once he became receptive to the possibility that he lacked the experience and know how, he began to learn. First tank… Second tank.. On the ground running, had problems again (AS EXPECTED, the tune is CONSTANTLY changing in a brand new engine with EXTREME mechanical pinch), trusted me, and was able to work through the problems together, became more proficient in tuning, and let go of the bad habits he was picking up solo, to now-he’s sending me videos of running all day long, and is even teaching HIS WIFE..

With the right attitude, and PATIENCE, anyone can succeed in nitro. I was a noob once too.

Holy crap I didn’t realize I have 5 OS engines now you keep better track of my stuff than I do. But yes you have been a great friend and help to me with advice that has always been spot on. David I really hope that you can find the person you are looking for because nitro kicks butt. But to be honest with you I think you have found a great guy here on this forum that if you are willing to learn he is more than happy to teach. Little motor is a nitro savant you won’t find many people that know more than him about RC in all forms.

 

[Littlemotor]

Holy crap I didn’t realize I have 5 OS engines now you keep better track of my stuff than I do. But yes you have been a great friend and help to me with advice that has always been spot on. David I really hope that you can find the person you are looking for because nitro kicks butt. But to be honest with you I think you have found a great guy here on this forum that if you are willing to learn he is more than happy to teach. Little motor is a nitro savant you won’t find many people that know more than him about RC in all forms.

Means a lot brother-I appreciate that!

 

[ohsnap]

DW - "I started this hobby long ago in nitro. I had a nitro 4tec, HPI Rs4..."

I started out with an RS4 myself.

DW - "I got out of nitro cause of all the mess that comes with nitro and electric was SO much cleaner, better running and brought an ease to the hobby."

I point friends that show interest in the hobby towards the "plug and play" world of electric options, mainly for the "ease to the hobby" aspect.

Couple final thoughts.
DW - "I'm trying to send it to someone and see what they think as like a last ditch effort and if that doesn't happen, it'll be in the trash "

I got out of the hobby for a number of years, and during that time, most of the tuners that I knew of seemed to have moved on or went out of business. So, I really have no recommendations for you.

Have you contacted the manufacturer?
It may still be under warranty, and they may have a break in service.
This is not a recommendation (I've never used them), but I know that RcRenew out of Charlotte NC offers a break-in service.

The comedian in me says "If you're going to throw it away, throw it my way".
In all seriousness, I've provided the best guidance that I can think of.

 

[Mister 4x4]

Holy crap I didn’t realize I have 5 OS engines now you keep better track of my stuff than I do. But yes you have been a great friend and help to me with advice that has always been spot on. David I really hope that you can find the person you are looking for because nitro kicks butt. But to be honest with you I think you have found a great guy here on this forum that if you are willing to learn he is more than happy to teach. Little motor is a nitro savant you won’t find many people that know more than him about RC in all forms.

100%.

DW - I think you're thinking too much into this. It's not a computer-controlled Bosch K-Jetronic-fed BMW engine, for Eff sake. As has been mentioned, if you can do your own brakes, you can make this little engine run again. It's not rocket surgery. D/L the engine manufacturer's manual, follow the directions, and keep us posted.

If it's still too much of a leap, maybe suggest switching back to electric. I liken Nitro vs. Electric to being a Jeep owner. The Nitro guys are more likely to own vintage CJ/YJ/TJs and maintain themselves, with the electric guys favoring the JK/JL Mall Crawlers and frequenting off-road shops and/or stealerships when something goes wrong with their rigs.

Sorry if I come across too harshly... I'm just being honest. This is a hobby, after all. Nitro is more like 'real' car maintenance than electrics, but both require the hands-on approach. The learning curve for each is very different, with the electrics being more complicated, IMHO (too much math and care & feeding of batteries for my liking). Nitro can be as simple as flip open the tank's lid, fill it up, and take off again, but only if you've got it all running right. Unless you're an IFMAR-rated driver with your own team and sponsors, you need to learn how to do this stuff yourself, and it's not all THAT complicated.

You never mentioned what kind of a chassis and/or set-up you've got. As with anything that's 'new,' I would recommend starting 'small' and working up to the high-dollar, 'big dawg' gear. You don't go out and buy a Ducati Panigale V4 R to learn how to ride a motorcycle, after all (or.. maybe you do as a high-end car collector - I don't know). Maybe get a nice OS Max engine suitable for your chassis, install it, break it in, and learn everything you can as you make friends with being a Nitro guy... then, take another stab and giving your 'high end' FX engine another go.

A buddy of mine said something that makes SO much sense to me: "It's a lot more fun to drive a slow car fast, then it is to drive a fast car slow."

I hope that helps - not trying to pick a fight.

 

[Davidwebb911]

I FIXED IT..... I FIXED IT..... I...FIXED.....IT!!!

Okay, for full transparency this issue was about 60-70% user fault and 30-40% manufacturer fault.

Okay so after spending hours on YT checking out more tuning videos and engine videos, I focused on the idle set screw since the idle was my issue. After all the videos I watch before buying the car, I thought (turned out to be wrong) that I had set it correctly based on the pics of my original thread when I came looking for help.

Turns out that the idle set screw was set basically to WOT, even though on the carb it gave the appearance of being slightly open. Come to find out if guess on this engine there is a gray area with the idea screw before it actually engages and disengaged the opening of the carb.... I dont know if thats normal or not.

Just ran my first FULL tank through the motor and she idles like a dream now. To everyone that posted helping me with tips and info THANK YOU SO VERY MUCH

 

[Littlemotor]

Hm… So the FX engine isn’t trashcan worthy after all.. Congrats.

 

[Davidwebb911]

Hm… So the FX engine isn’t trashcan worthy after all.. Congrats.

Is the gray area with the idle set screw normal? I've never seen or heard of that.

 

[Davidwebb911]

Also, had a couple quick questions. I enriched the needles and on its initial startup it was billowing smoke from the exhaust at idle for a few minutes and then the smoke wasn't as noticeable. Is the change in consistency of smoke normal like it is on normal cars?

During the depletion of the first tank it would noticeably rev higher, no where near as high as it did before and then after 35 40 seconds, It would go back to normal idle. Is that to normal?

 

[ohsnap]

DW - "Is the change in consistency of smoke normal like it is on normal cars?"
My thought is no, if by "normal cars" you are referring to the family auto.
Especially on a cold day, the "smoke" a 4 stroke engine emits after start-up is water vapor related and it disappears as the engine and exhaust system reach operating temperature.

You want a fairly rich mixture during break in and the (oil) smoke is a byproduct that becomes progressively less and less tank over break-in tank as you lean it out.

DW - "During the depletion of the first tank it would noticeably rev higher, no where near as high as it did before and then after 35 40
seconds, It would go back to normal idle. Is that to normal?"
No - not unless you hit the throttle.
It sounds to me (and I am totally guessing here) like your settings allow for a fuel build-up to occur and that the increased revs are the way your engine "clears it's throat". (for a lack of any other analogy coming to mind)

It could also be the opposite where the engine revs up as it goes lean - like at the end of the tank.
Which may align with your comment that
"it was billowing smoke from the exhaust at idle for a few minutes and then the smoke wasn't as noticeable."
Again - total guess here - other than the "No".

What temperature was it idling at?

 

[ohsnap]

Along the lines of it possibly leaning out.
Do you see any air bubbles in the fuel line?

 

[Davidwebb911]

Along the lines of it possibly leaning out.
Do you see any air bubbles in the fuel line?

No. There weren't any disruptions in the fuel line that I could see. I'm in the process of getting a temp gun. Never had a use for one in any way until now and will head to Walmart and grab one.

Just out of precaution, I enriched the needles beyond the factory settings before starting it in an abundance of caution just in case what I was trying to do based of the info I was able to find was incorrect.

 

[ohsnap]

I never toy with any needle other than the HSN during break-in, and I manage its setting by temperature.
I reason that the manufacturer sets the LSN and mid-range needles just about where they need to be to run good.
Any changes to them are fine tuning and break-in ain't the time for that.

The last engine I broke in was an LRP .32 and I found that it was so rich that I had to crank the HSN down (lean it out) 2 full turns for the engine to hit 120 degrees (F) and eventually (like the 2nd tank) ended cranking it down even more to hit the temp I was looking for.
My buddy who also bought one (after me and after I broke mine in) says "Well, the manual that came with the engine tells you...".
Yeah, like I read.
We got to the same place...

You talk to 5 different guys and odds are high, you'll get 5 different break-in procedures.
I know what works for me.

I think it's bad mojo to prematurely mess with the LSN and (if applicable) the mid-range needles.
Adjusting Idle gap or HSN - cool. Apparently, the instructions sometimes tell you to.
Other cr*p - not.

To put them back into their relative orbits, I would reset the LSN/Mid-range needles back to factory settings and resume the break-in from there and manage the process using temperature (HSN) and smoke.
You want some excess smoke at this stage. Means it's rich and lubricating.

 

[Mister 4x4]

My experience is that Yes, you want a bit of blue smoke to ensure there's enough oiling going on (since it's a 2-stroke), not so much that it's dripping out of the exhaust port, though. There shouldn't be any water vapor in the exhaust, just burnt fuel and castor oil. But having a little more blue smoke on start-up, with it tapering off is normal as the engine comes up to temperature - once it's hot, that's where to want to see a good cloud on WOT with not hardly noticeable at idle.

I've also noticed that the mix leans out ever so slightly as the tank runs down, since it tends to suck-in a little bit of the tank air (nitro fumes at that point, basically) as it goes. Top off the tank, and it goes back to normal. But yeah, definitely want a little bit more during break-in, as @ohsnap mantioned

I've run 3 or 4 gallons of 20% Nitro (usually Blue Thunder) through my Kyosho SuperTen's GT-15 engine over the years, and it's still going strong - no performance loss or abnormal wear. My understanding is the entry-level engines (like mine) are typically only good for 2 gallons before needing a rebuild. To which I say screw-it - I'll run it 'til it dies and replace it with something better... or retire the car altogether in favor of my new Kyosho FW-05.