Can't accelerate with out dying

[SlingItX]

If you're hanging on to the merry-go-round with your hands, which part of your body will tend to drift outward - your hands or your feet? Your hands can't possibly swing out, they are what's holding you. The end of the clutch shoe you're saying will come out to engage the clutch can't possibly come out - they're attached to the pin!

The end of the clutch shoe that is opposite the pin will come out to engage the clutch bell regardless of which direction you spin. Run this by your science teacher and see what he/she says. Better yet - remove the clutch bell and the clutch springs and spin the flywheel both direction without changing orientation of the shoes.

'Nuff said.

 

[Error401]

Forget the in and out thing. The point is: 1) centrifugal force will make the shoes pivot out and 2) they will pivot out on the pins and the bearing surface (part that contacts the bell) will still seat properly. What is different about having the shoes on backwards is that the bearing surface end will be leading the pins and not trailing them like they should.

What this will do is set up a force triangle where the outward thrust (of spinning) is compounded by the force of the pins making the shoes dig into the bell (reducing slippage). What this does is make the clutch grab more. If you have a reliable, crazy strong engine it makes for punchier hole shots. But it is also harder on shoe life.

 

[El Pirata]

Originally posted by Error401
My little pony does 70mph while humping WoodiE's leg.

TMI!!!

Originally posted by Waste Land
We are argueing the same point except for one part. If u get ont he merry go around and spin it your body will go out and i understand that. But your body will spin to one side or the other depending on roatation. And if the wrong part of the clutch is extending and not the long curved part of the clutch then it wont grab.

Ok whatever, sure, the sky's really green and the ocean is pink. I understand where you're coming from now.

 

[SkyMaxx]

Waste Land, might I make a suggestion? Until you have figured out the laws of physics, become an engineering grad or perhaps developed a MENSA style IQ, leave this one alone. You are not only explaining it wrong, but you are doing it poorly.

1. The shoes can be mounted leading edge or trailing edge style and the rotation of the engine will cause them to open.
2. The area of the shoe that makes contact with the clutch bell is the same regardless of which way they are mounted.
3. If they are mounted leading edge, they will grab more quickly as the motion causes the clutch bell to force the shoes open more quickly and apply a little more frictional force to them.
4. Either way will work. The engine has to work the same regardless. The vehicle will move regardless.

If this wasn't the case in your scenario, then perhaps you had other problems...but the mounting of the clutch shoes was not the problem.

 

[Error401]

Originally posted by Error401
Forget the in and out thing. The point is: 1) centrifugal force will make the shoes pivot out and 2) they will pivot out on the pins and the bearing surface (part that contacts the bell) will still seat properly. What is different about having the shoes on backwards is that the bearing surface end will be leading the pins and not trailing them like they should.

What this will do is set up a force triangle where the outward thrust (of spinning) is compounded by the force of the pins making the shoes dig into the bell (reducing slippage). What this does is make the clutch grab more. If you have a reliable, crazy strong engine it makes for punchier hole shots. But it is also harder on shoe life.

Originally posted by SkyMaxx
Waste Land, might I make a suggestion? Until you have figured out the laws of physics, become an engineering grad or perhaps developed a MENSA style IQ, leave this one alone. You are not only explaining it wrong, but you are doing it poorly.

1. The shoes can be mounted leading edge or trailing edge style and the rotation of the engine will cause them to open.
2. The area of the shoe that makes contact with the clutch bell is the same regardless of which way they are mounted.
3. If they are mounted leading edge, they will grab more quickly as the motion causes the clutch bell to force the shoes open more quickly and apply a little more frictional force to them.
4. Either way will work. The engine has to work the same regardless. The vehicle will move regardless.

If this wasn't the case in your scenario, then perhaps you had other problems...but the mounting of the clutch shoes was not the problem.

Is there an echo in here?

Sorry about this strange turn of discussion Zaang. Did messing with the needles make any difference?

 

[cbreaker]

If you have a reliable, crazy strong engine it makes for punchier hole shots.

So on a normal engine it won't do much?

I think that I'd rather have my clutch shoes last longer anyways, and mount them the normal way.

But, if I had a few sets of shoes, I guess I'd give it a shot putting them on "backwards."

As for the engine dying when stepping on the gas, I've had this happen a lot on my new engine (GS B01, every racer's dream engine and I HAVE IT mua ha ha ha) and it was always caused by two reasons: Too lean, or too cold. It having been pretty damned cold in new england lately, I usually have to let the engine idle for a few minutes before it does anything but idle. Too cold, and it'll die as soon as you give it some gas.

I've had good luck getting it running when it's really cold by letting it idle for awhile, then give it gas very slowly a few times to get the thing up to temp.

Of course, if your engine is running too rich, it can cause the same types of problems and it'll be harder to warm up the engine with a lot of gas going through it. Usually for me it doesn't generally stall if it's set a little too rich, it'll just gurgle a bit.

I think since I got the thing, I've spent more time trying to get it running right and less time actually using it =) One day, it's 40 degrees and the thing is running beautiful, and the next day it's 30 degrees and I have to adjust the tuning to even get it started.

 

[Zaang]

i get the damn thing running i let it idle for a minute or so then one of two things happen. it either dies or if i try to give it even a little bit of gas it dies. now i was also wondering what the normal settting for the idle screw are on the 24.7 xtm if it was not set right from the factory will that make a difference? i have tried the high speed needle all the way out to 4 turns still has not helped anything. i bought this engine in the hopes it would get my TQ moving better and right now i am wishing i left the .21 engine in it.

 

[cbreaker]

I could be mistaken, but the high speed screw won't do anything until your engine is spinning at high speed.

You wanna adjust the low speed screw.

As for idle, I believe it's a general rule that you want from .7mm to 1mm opening in the carb when the throttle is shut all the way. This could vary on your engine I suppose. Really, in idle your goal is to have the engine run and not engage the clutch. Some engines need more RPM to idle without stalling from what I hear.

 

[Waste Land]

Originally posted by Error401
Forget the in and out thing. The point is: 1) centrifugal force will make the shoes pivot out and 2) they will pivot out on the pins and the bearing surface (part that contacts the bell) will still seat properly. What is different about having the shoes on backwards is that the bearing surface end will be leading the pins and not trailing them like they should.

This is what I've been trying to explain the entire time. If you put the shoe on backwards the wrong part would be pulled out thats all. Just the knife like part of the clutch shoe no the end where the pin goes threw. Damn why does everyone wanna come down so holy moly hard me one.

 

[SkyMaxx]

Waste Land

You either still do not get it or just can't explain it correctly. The wrong part will not be pulled out. The same part of the clutch shoe still moves outward and makes contact with the clutch bell. Perhaps, you have it straight in your head, but you are not explaining it very well at all. Your use of diagrams didn't help your case.

Zaang,

The idle set screw should be set so that when you look down the throat of the carb with the throttle at the closed position, you see a opening of about a credit card thickness in the carb barrel.

As for the LSN and HSN, the LSN generally meters fuel at low rpms. The HSN meters fuel throughout the spectrum but has more impact on the high end.

If you haven't tried it yet, go back to factory pre-sets for the LSN and HSN. Give it a whirl. From there, try to go a tad on the richer side of things if it is really cold out or a tad on the leaner side if it is unseasonably hot.

 

[El Pirata]

Originally posted by Waste Land
This is what I've been trying to explain the entire time. If you put the shoe on backwards the wrong part would be pulled out thats all. Just the knife like part of the clutch shoe no the end where the pin goes threw. Damn why does everyone wanna come down so holy moly hard me one.

The pic you used to say the pin was the one to come out has been removed or is not longer viewable, might have something to do with the edit. The pin will hold that portion of the show in no matter which direction the show is put on. The other end will come out.

 

[SkyMaxx]

The diagram he used on page two of this thread is still viewable to me. Perhaps you looked in the wrong section or your firewall is too secure again.

 

[El Pirata]

Probably, or d, woodie changed the script again.

 

[Error401]

I can't believe that someone hasn't mentioned the friggin PINCH TEST yet.

Zaang,
Do this:
1) get it running at an idle.
2) before it dies, pinch the intake fuel line, keep it pinched, and see what happens next.

If it speeds up slightly and dies immediately or within 2 seconds, then the low speed needle is too lean. Richen the LSN 1/8th turn and repeat.

If it runs for longer than 10-15 seconds before it speeds up and dies, it's real rich and is causing your crank case to load up and thus die. Lean the LSN up 1/8th and test again.

If it runs for about 5 seconds before speeding up and dieing, the LSN is just about set right.

3) Once you get to this stage, start tuning the high speed needle, and don't touch the LSN until the next step.
Get it to at least move without dieing. The HSN should be set rich at factory settings. Continue breakin.

4) once you get it so that it's on the rich side of tuned on the HSN, it's time to fine tune the LSN. Make a high speed run to cleaar out the engine, bring it to a stop and let it idle for 5-10 seconds. Then nail the throttle.

If it coughs and belches exhaust, tweak the LSN leaner just a tad. it's still too rich and is slowly loading the case.

If it hesitates, it's too lean. Richen it a tad.

if it idles for 5-10 seconds and takes off without coughing or bogging, then the LSN is tuned. Don't touch it again unless it's vitally necessary (like if you change altitudes). Only tune the HSN from day to day, or run to run as needed.



It's been my experience that sometimes the book can be miss printed. 8.5 turns out seems pretty excessive on the LSN.

Hope this helps,
401

 

[Waste Land]

Okay, I've got it right in my head, lol, but maybe I can't explain it like I'm thinking. I know how the clutch works and what not and I remember when I put my shoes opposite fromt he diagram on the HPI website the shoes would not grab and the engine would just rev. Anyway I've hijacked the hell out of someone's engine trouble post so I'm gonna leave it at that.

 

[Zaang]

sofar i have rebuilt the motor and exhaust system and started it but i still cannot keep it running still dies at idle after about 1 minute and will not allow me to put any acceleration into it. whenever i open the carb even a little it dies if it was running and if it is not started it won't even turn over with carb opened more than a couple mmeters

 

[cbreaker]

Are you absolutely sure you've tried adjusting the needles correctly?

If so, maybe the problem lies elsewhere? Check to make sure there's not something wrong with the fuel tank or fuel lines. If there's a blockage somewhere, or a crack in the fuel line, it might not be able to supply enough gas to the engine when you open the throttle.

Worth a shot..

 

[SlingItX]

Zaang-

Along with everyone's else recommendations that engine 'should' be starting and throttling, maybe poorly, but at least doing better than it's doing. Even with the needles in the ballpark.

I know this is a stretch, but when I had a similar problem I tore apart the carb and noticed a very fine cat fur stuck in the high side needle assembly. That was all it took, once removed it worked perfectly. Yes, it's a stretch, but see if there's any blockage in the carb at all. Be sure to seal the base of the carb so it won't leak on re-assembly.

I think everyone here has been in your shoes and gotten frustrated. Just be patient and stick with it, always going back to the factory recommended settings and eventually you'll eliminate any problems and get the thing running.

 

[SkyMaxx]

Centrifugal Force or not...

The centrifugal force discussion has been moved to this location:
CLICK HERE

The discussion can continue or die on its own. This thread certainly does not need anymore train wrecks or distractors. Sorry, we let it get off track Zaang.

-SkyMaxx

 

[Zaang]

i am going to take the carb off the engine tonight when i get home and check it for foriegn substances then i am going to replace the fuel lines and make sure everything is seated correctly i also just ordered another crankshaft and piston and sleeve in case maybe i messed them up putting them in. thanks for all the help guys i will give you an update tomorrow after i get everything done. also on the clutch thing i have like three ball bearings that go onto the crankshaft and one solid, looks like brass, sleeve. does any one know if there is a proper order these go in like 2 bearings and then the sleeve and the last bearing i don't know if you understand what i mean but it is straight in my head at least. i think?