Build/engine swap: Thunder Tiger into HSP

[tudordewolf]

Another HSP-based build, this one on their "Flying Fish" pivot-ball onroad nitro with a Thunder Tiger Evo-12(P)

After a bit of hacksawing, sanding, and drilling, everything went together quite cleanly. I had to cut 5mm off the engine mounts to lower the engine so a bump box could reach it, drill out the flywheel to 6.35mm (1/4") bore, and extend the pilot shaft by 5mm with a shoulder bolt.

 

[gandalfnz]

Looks very nice and clean (for now).

Fuel cap, where did you get it?

Would love to see how you extended the engine shaft...too late now I guess.

 

[tudordewolf]

Looks very nice and clean (for now).

Fuel cap, where did you get it?

Would love to see how you extended the engine shaft...too late now I guess.

Thanks! Fuel cap is the stock hop-up from HSP, I got it off AliExpress. They also have blue purple and gold, I've got one of each on my other builds.

I added some silicone around the exhaust barb because it would leak around the threads otherwise. The stock one doesn't have a great passage for the exhaust gas to flow and I think it clogs up / fails to deliver pressure.

Pics of the pilot shaft extension:

M3 bolt, 5mm long thread, 5mm diameter shoulder 5mm long.

 

[gandalfnz]

Thanks! Fuel cap is the stock hop-up from HSP, I got it off AliExpress. They also have blue purple and gold, I've got one of each on my other builds.

I added some silicone around the exhaust barb because it would leak around the threads otherwise. The stock one doesn't have a great passage for the exhaust gas to flow and I think it clogs up / fails to deliver pressure.

Pics of the pilot shaft extension:

View attachment 149204View attachment 149203

M3 bolt, 5mm long thread, 5mm diameter shoulder 5mm long.

Thank you for taking the time to send pics.
Shoulder bolt, did you machine it at all? Seems a perfect fit.
Where did you get it form, I might need a few as well?

 

[tudordewolf]

No machining, just luck and calipers to know what I was looking for. It took one .3mm shim to hold the clutch bell perfectly. I got them on amazon

Edit: "uxcell 10pcs 304 Stainless Steel Hex Socket Shoulder Bolt 5mm Shoulder Dia 5mm Shoulder Length M3 Thread" is the item title - very literal.

 

[tudordewolf]

Here's it's first run / second tank during break in. It started up very easily, less than 3 seconds on the bump box, and has a very robust idle.

After the first start it would restart as soon as the starter touched its flywheel, I've never had an engine "catch" so readily.

 

[gandalfnz]

Need to add one of those flying fish to my arsenal, have had a few go by and ppl were asking too much for them, almost as much as I pay for Kyoshos and HPI's.

Runs great, what body do you have for it?

 

[tudordewolf]

Need to add one of those flying fish to my arsenal, have had a few go by and ppl were asking too much for them, almost as much as I pay for Kyoshos and HPI's.

Runs great, what body do you have for it?

I'm thinking a silver 240SX body.

You have a knack for good deals and diamonds in the rough, I'm very impressed with your restoration threads, it'll be hard to beat the deals you can make for yourself that way.

I got that one as a roller for $90 from aliexpress, they sell them without engine, radio, or body - just waiting to be souped up. They also sell the buggy and monster truck rollers for ~$100 and $120, respectively. Jz9193 Store on aliexpress stocks all of HSP's parts, searchable by part number, $3 shipping. Just have to wait a month for 'em.

I'll mention that there's 2 versions of basically every HSP 1/10th, C-link and pivot ball. The pivot ball versions are clearly the 2.0 revision with a better radio tray, I wouldn't recommend picking up the c-link ones- they've got more wobble in the hubs and permanent toe-in on the back (kind of like your kyosho issue) - the pivot ball ones give you full control over toe and camber on all 4 wheels.

 

[gandalfnz]

Would you mind linking the V2 Ffish you are talking about, might pick up one up, as I have a spare engine sitting around.

Something I have been working on for the past few weeks, body was painted by us, vent holes and decals too.
I had this RS4 without the body for a while, then found some fairly decently priced original HPI bodies.

Having a bit of trouble tuning this one, as it just shuts off after a WOT, no immediately, though. Need to play more with LSN.
Just figured out that GXR15 carb is a direct fit into HPI engines, which is great, as they idle and tune so well. Its all in the carb.

This one is assembled from parts from different cars/brands.
Fuel tank is HSP (flying fish)
Exhaust is Kyosho
List goes on....you can spot all the small mods I had to do, in order to make them fit.

 

[tudordewolf]

The silentstreek is a good pipe at a good price!

Its all in the carb.

That seems to be the open secret of nitro engines, it's night and day between budget and bespoke carbs.

Here's the link to the roller - one caveat, it expects a long-threaded shaft engine, or else one that uses a ~5mm spacer before the flywheel. I'm working on an engine-mount mod to adapt short-shaft and SG-shaft engines to it, but that's still in progress. The Evo-12P (the P stands for pilot shaft) was slightly weird in that it has an unusual pilot shaft longer than the SG shaft, so it only needed another 5mm to mimic the stock arrangement. Side note, traxxas's multi-shaft readily adapts to this chassis, which really impressed me since they don't need to offer their engines in an off-platform version, but they do so anyway.

You'll find it's heavily cloned off the RS4, from what I can tell.

That's a sweet build, I always wanted a Subaru bodied car. Been eyeing HPI's WR8 for that reason, but a small block 1/8 doesn't appeal to me that much.

Dying after WOT - in my experience, the best cure to that was to up the idle just a bit. I felt like I was going in circles around a relatively good tune that idled nicely and produced lots of power without overheating, but would randomly die after 2-3 good pulls.

I think that at first getting the idle low and stable is challenging enough that lower is better as an ideal, but once you're experienced I think it makes sense to raise the idle to just below the point where the clutch engages.

 

[gandalfnz]

The silentstreek is a good pipe at a good price!



That seems to be the open secret of nitro engines, it's night and day between budget and bespoke carbs.

Here's the link to the roller - one caveat, it expects a long-threaded shaft engine, or else one that uses a ~5mm spacer before the flywheel. I'm working on an engine-mount mod to adapt short-shaft and SG-shaft engines to it, but that's still in progress. The Evo-12P (the P stands for pilot shaft) was slightly weird in that it has an unusual pilot shaft longer than the SG shaft, so it only needed another 5mm to mimic the stock arrangement. Side note, traxxas's multi-shaft readily adapts to this chassis, which really impressed me since they don't need to offer their engines in an off-platform version, but they do so anyway.

You'll find it's heavily cloned off the RS4, from what I can tell.

That's a sweet build, I always wanted a Subaru bodied car. Been eyeing HPI's WR8 for that reason, but a small block 1/8 doesn't appeal to me that much.

Dying after WOT - in my experience, the best cure to that was to up the idle just a bit. I felt like I was going in circles around a relatively good tune that idled nicely and produced lots of power without overheating, but would randomly die after 2-3 good pulls.

I think that at first getting the idle low and stable is challenging enough that lower is better as an ideal, but once you're experienced I think it makes sense to raise the idle to just below the point where the clutch engages.

Thanks

Are you saying that a traxxas engine is a straight fit, clutch wise?
I have a few new engines, I could use.
But then again, I also have a brand new VX 18 which is the original engine for this car.

Flying fish is almost an exact clone of RS4.

Engine on this RS4 has always been weird, I have tested it again today, and agreed, I have just upped the idle gap, but I have been spoiled after experiencing how low Kyosho can idle.

I have gone over the engine a few times now, there is no air leaks, or at least not big enough to cause an issue.
HSN is flush with brass housing, which would indicate too rich (as per manual), but any leaner than this is starts to bog.
Engine always starts "pinging" at quarter tank, which indicates lean, but I just run it like this now, because if any richer than its too rich.
Just can't please it tbh.
You can have 10 engine of the same brand and type, and they will all behave differently.

 

[tudordewolf]

A Traxxas 2.5 or 3.3 engine with their multi-shaft crankshaft (not Traxxas IPS) will fit clutch wise with a stock HSP flywheel, clutch, and clutch bell - but you'll need a flywheel spacer. "Sh 18 flywheel spacer" is the best match I've found sold individually.

The stock engine mounts needed a tiny bit of dremeling to fit the 3.3's wider crankcase, but the aftermarket ones are narrower and probably fit right in. The EZ-start won't fit, you'll need the pull start.

Tuning the VX 18 makes me wonder how many people were turned off to nitro by a frustrating first. I had a similar experience with the HSN - but I think that may have to do with poor exhaust pressure through the stock fuel cap; a little oil will clog up the narrow passages, and you open up the HSN super wide to compensate because there's not enough pressure feeding the carb.

On the flip side, I had to tighten the LSN to only 0.5 - 1 turns out from flush for a good idle, way "leaner" than other carbs.

All that was fixed by a carb swap, an Sh. 18 rotary carb tuned much more predictably / near factory settings, and also started easier. I also found the stock HSP glow plugs to be perfectly functional, but prone to physically failing and developing a leak around their post. OS #8's have shown me nothing but reliability.

Here's my flying fish with the 18cxp (VX 18) running 30% nitro. I've gotten this one up to 40mph on the stock engine with a swapped clutch bell, 18/23 instead of the stock 16/21. Excuse the high idle, it was my first tank of 30% and I was getting it dialed in.

 

[gandalfnz]

A Traxxas 2.5 or 3.3 engine with their multi-shaft crankshaft (not Traxxas IPS) will fit clutch wise with a stock HSP flywheel, clutch, and clutch bell - but you'll need a flywheel spacer. "Sh 18 flywheel spacer" is the best match I've found sold individually.

The stock engine mounts needed a tiny bit of dremeling to fit the 3.3's wider crankcase, but the aftermarket ones are narrower and probably fit right in. The EZ-start won't fit, you'll need the pull start.

Tuning the VX 18 makes me wonder how many people were turned off to nitro by a frustrating first. I had a similar experience with the HSN - but I think that may have to do with poor exhaust pressure through the stock fuel cap; a little oil will clog up the narrow passages, and you open up the HSN super wide to compensate because there's not enough pressure feeding the carb.

On the flip side, I had to tighten the LSN to only 0.5 - 1 turns out from flush for a good idle, way "leaner" than other carbs.

All that was fixed by a carb swap, an Sh. 18 rotary carb tuned much more predictably / near factory settings, and also started easier. I also found the stock HSP glow plugs to be perfectly functional, but prone to physically failing and developing a leak around their post. OS #8's have shown me nothing but reliability.

Here's my flying fish with the 18cxp running 30% nitro. I've gotten this one up to 40mph on the stock engine with a swapped clutch bell, 18/23 instead of the stock 16/21. Excuse the high idle, it was my first tank of 30% and I was getting it dialed in.

So you have few flying fish models?

I have had great experience with VX18 hsp engines, they tune so easily and run good, much better than traxxas poopy carb.

Traxxas multishaft? Never knew they even made these...just had a look, they are hot cheap...

Afraid you were right, that price for Ffish without the engine from Ali, is more than what I would pay locally, usually for a complete running car.
And, so the hunt continues.

 

[tudordewolf]

So you have few flying fish models?

I have one each of the C-link and Pivot ball versions which is where my preference comes from. I raised the ride height on the pivot ball one by bending the chassis tabs under the arms lower, now it's my highest-riding onroad, which you can see from my available bashing-space is a necessary feature. My poor Kyosho skitters across the gravel...

Ironically, my C-link Flying Fish, which I would call my cheapest / least "favorite" model, is my most-driven and most-maintained one, though I'm planning on putting more miles on the other.

I also have their rally car, "Kutiger" which is a 1/8th shell thrown on their buggy chassis (not unlike Kyosho's inferno GT, one of which I also just bought secondhand and haven't unboxed yet...), and their monster truck, which is in my profile pic with a 3.3 swapped in. That went 31mph pre-swap with the single speed, I wasn't expecting that.

HSP's "common platform" impresses me - all my HSP models need only 2 sizes of bearing, either 5x8 or 8x12, and that's for the transmission, clutch, differentials, and wheel hubs. They all share steering components, they all have the same differentials - more than half the components between 4 of my RC's can be bagged as a single family. A new 2-speed can be had for under $10, which is good for how I drive them.

Admittedly, the VX 18 with its stock carb does tune quite acceptably, I set my current personal speed records on stock hardware - it might just be that it was my first that made it more challenging. I remember being blown away by the sheer niceness of a Kyosho FW-06 by comparison, every feature is just a bit more tailored and tuned. It's also got an extremely similar layout to the RS4, right-hand shaft drive, servos in the same place.

 

[gandalfnz]

I have one each of the C-link and Pivot ball versions which is where my preference comes from. I raised the ride height on the pivot ball one by bending the chassis tabs under the arms lower, now it's my highest-riding onroad, which you can see from my available bashing-space is a necessary feature. My poor Kyosho skitters across the gravel...

Ironically, my C-link Flying Fish, which I would call my cheapest / least "favorite" model, is my most-driven and most-maintained one, though I'm planning on putting more miles on the other.

I also have their rally car, "Kutiger" which is a 1/8th shell thrown on their buggy chassis (not unlike Kyosho's inferno GT, one of which I also just bought secondhand and haven't unboxed yet...), and their monster truck, which is in my profile pic with a 3.3 swapped in. That went 31mph pre-swap with the single speed, I wasn't expecting that.

HSP's "common platform" impresses me - all my HSP models need only 2 sizes of bearing, either 5x8 or 8x12, and that's for the transmission, clutch, differentials, and wheel hubs. They all share steering components, they all have the same differentials - more than half the components between 4 of my RC's can be bagged as a single family. A new 2-speed can be had for under $10, which is good for how I drive them.

Admittedly, the VX 18 with its stock carb does tune quite acceptably, I set my current personal speed records on stock hardware - it might just be that it was my first that made it more challenging. I remember being blown away by the sheer niceness of a Kyosho FW-06 by comparison, every feature is just a bit more tailored and tuned. It's also got an extremely similar layout to the RS4, right-hand shaft drive, servos in the same place.

As I said, I have been on the hunt for a FF for a while, to make it my main runner/basher, as I am too affraid of crashing into the street curb with my Kyoshos and HPI's, since parts for those are so scarce now days, yet parts for FF are super cheap on Ali.

You Ttiger one, is that single speed that I can see?

I purchased a brand new FW06 a few weeks back, its a yellow corvette, needs a break in though, so gonna have to wait till summer.

I have only dealt with one VX18 so far (break in myself) and I have been amazed at how well and easy it tuned. To me it was much easier than Kyosho and HPI. Quality I am not so sure, but it runs great.

Here are some other bodies we painted, and are waiting for future projects. These are only bodies on wheels though.

 

[tudordewolf]

Those bodies look great, I haven't painted my first one yet. I've got 2 shells, liquid mask and tamiya paints ready, just need to make a day project of it.

What vehicle do you have with a VX 18? My TT-FF is the 2-speed, I just wasn't taking it past the shift point yet in that video.

My experience breaking in the VX-18 involved lots of restarting and having to fiddle with the tune to keep them going, and also the idle-gap issue where it seems like the carb leaks some air, such that you can't get the idle down with just the idle screw.

I marveled at my FW-06 when it idled through its first tank all on its own; all my VX's took coaxing to keep going even with preheating. I just figured that was the challenge of nitro, but then I had other engines start and run much more easily.

I've noticed 2 versions though, one says "VX 18" on the crankcase and the other says "Vertex 18 Engine." They must be from different castings, or it could be an original/clone situation? Maybe there's other subtle differences between them.

There's a "Mugen Seiki" Vertex-12 engine on ebay (for $240, so it's not going anywhere...), which is interesting because the only other make I've seen is the VX 16, as a predecessor to the 18, all of which look like knockoffs of the OS-12 CVR. I'm very curious what the actual original design / manufacturer / product lineup was.

All that said, it's exactly what it needs to be as a $50 engine. It's durable and I'm not worried about handing the remote to a curious kid at the park, and it has no shortage of power or RPM's.

 

[gandalfnz]

Those bodies look great, I haven't painted my first one yet. I've got 2 shells, liquid mask and tamiya paints ready, just need to make a day project of it.

What vehicle do you have with a VX 18? My TT-FF is the 2-speed, I just wasn't taking it past the shift point yet in that video.

My experience breaking in the VX-18 involved lots of restarting and having to fiddle with the tune to keep them going, and also the idle-gap issue where it seems like the carb leaks some air, such that you can't get the idle down with just the idle screw.

I marveled at my FW-06 when it idled through its first tank all on its own; all my VX's took coaxing to keep going even with preheating. I just figured that was the challenge of nitro, but then I had other engines start and run much more easily.

I've noticed 2 versions though, one says "VX 18" on the crankcase and the other says "Vertex 18 Engine." They must be from different castings, or it could be an original/clone situation? Maybe there's other subtle differences between them.

There's a "Mugen Seiki" Vertex-12 engine on ebay (for $240, so it's not going anywhere...), which is interesting because the only other make I've seen is the VX 16, as a predecessor to the 18, all of which look like knockoffs of the OS-12 CVR. I'm very curious what the actual original design / manufacturer / product lineup was.

All that said, it's exactly what it needs to be as a $50 engine. It's durable and I'm not worried about handing the remote to a curious kid at the park, and it has no shortage of power or RPM's.

Interesting.
My VX18 was super easy to break in, didn't shut off on my once. Preheated it, wrapped the cooling head in some alu foil, and off it went, never missed a beat. I was so amazed at how well that engine ran that it changed my mind about HSP in general.
Didnt even touch the LSN, adjusted the HSN after break in and it just flies. Responds so well to HSN tune. TBH I found it a lot better than traxxas, it ran cooler and was just easy to work with overall.
Maybe just my luck? I have another brand new VX18, hope this one does the same for me.
My Profile pic, the mini cooper runs that VX18, here is a vid of it running.

 

[tudordewolf]

Oh man, that thing is amazing. I'm a sucker for mini nitros. I have a 1/16th "Blur" buggy and a "Starpace" onroad with SH .07 engine. The latter was hard to find but I scored one new in box:

 

[alfredwong2003]

Those bodies look great, I haven't painted my first one yet. I've got 2 shells, liquid mask and tamiya paints ready, just need to make a day project of it.

What vehicle do you have with a VX 18? My TT-FF is the 2-speed, I just wasn't taking it past the shift point yet in that video.

My experience breaking in the VX-18 involved lots of restarting and having to fiddle with the tune to keep them going, and also the idle-gap issue where it seems like the carb leaks some air, such that you can't get the idle down with just the idle screw.

I marveled at my FW-06 when it idled through its first tank all on its own; all my VX's took coaxing to keep going even with preheating. I just figured that was the challenge of nitro, but then I had other engines start and run much more easily.

I've noticed 2 versions though, one says "VX 18" on the crankcase and the other says "Vertex 18 Engine." They must be from different castings, or it could be an original/clone situation? Maybe there's other subtle differences between them.

There's a "Mugen Seiki" Vertex-12 engine on ebay (for $240, so it's not going anywhere...), which is interesting because the only other make I've seen is the VX 16, as a predecessor to the 18, all of which look like knockoffs of the OS-12 CVR. I'm very curious what the actual original design / manufacturer / product lineup was.

All that said, it's exactly what it needs to be as a $50 engine. It's durable and I'm not worried about handing the remote to a curious kid at the park, and it has no shortage of power or RPM's.

They are most likely a clone of the OFNA Force line oof engine.

 

[tudordewolf]

Traxxas multishaft? Never knew they even made these...just had a look, they are hot cheap...

True, but just the crankshaft can be had for $40, which makes it a bit more affordable if you have an engine on hand to rebuild