Nitro poisoning.

[PaulC]

I think I spent too long kneeling over the car and rev'ing it, I accidentally squeezed the fuel bottle in my pocket popping the lid off and flooding my pocket with fuel, which I promptly got all over my hands and didn't wash or wipe it off, except on my jeans. Immediately put everything in the car and (lit a cigarette).

About 20 minutes after I got home I started feeling groggy, shakey hands, nauseous and generally very poor.

Apparently, not only is Methanol highly lethal, 100ml kills fairly instantly, whether drunk, inhaled as vapor or... absorbed through the skin. Small < 1 ml doses cause the methanol to bond with oxygen in the blood creating formaldehyde and formic acid, both toxic carcinogenics and it general screws with your blood chemistry and oxygen levels.

That doesn't count the synthetic oil in the Model Technics fuel, which I have not found the contents of it except it is called "EDL".

So, guys, try and avoid this stuff, it's not good for you. If you spill it on your hands, wash it off. Try and stay clear of inhaling the exhaust, especially when running rich as it contains unburnt methanol.

Fully burnt it's 'fairly' harmless CO2, Water and Nitrogen. Chances are you'll get some Carbon-monoxide too, which is also lethal if you are exposed to the gas for several hours.

Paul

 

[revo_rob_1984]

good write up and yeah definatly be careful with this stuff. . .are you feeling better???

 

[robmob]

Yet another reason to....Piss on Nitro!

 

[PaulC]

good write up and yeah definatly be careful with this stuff. . .are you feeling better???

Aye. Think it's a mixture of all the exercise walking the car round the mile long circuit I did, absorbed and inhaled methanol and smoking basically dropped my oxygen levels too low.

Hands still feel a little shaky, but I was out driving in the car and didn't at all bad in the fresh air.

 

[2revo1maxx]

I think I spent too long kneeling over the car and rev'ing it, I accidentally squeezed the fuel bottle in my pocket popping the lid off and flooding my pocket with fuel, which I promptly got all over my hands and didn't wash or wipe it off, except on my jeans. Immediately put everything in the car and (lit a cigarette).

About 20 minutes after I got home I started feeling groggy, shakey hands, nauseous and generally very poor.

Apparently, not only is Methanol highly lethal, 100ml kills fairly instantly, whether drunk, inhaled as vapor or... absorbed through the skin. Small < 1 ml doses cause the methanol to bond with oxygen in the blood creating formaldehyde and formic acid, both toxic carcinogenics and it general screws with your blood chemistry and oxygen levels.

That doesn't count the synthetic oil in the Model Technics fuel, which I have not found the contents of it except it is called "EDL".

So, guys, try and avoid this stuff, it's not good for you. If you spill it on your hands, wash it off. Try and stay clear of inhaling the exhaust, especially when running rich as it contains unburnt methanol.

Fully burnt it's 'fairly' harmless CO2, Water and Nitrogen. Chances are you'll get some Carbon-monoxide too, which is also lethal if you are exposed to the gas for several hours.

Paul

Well it does cause cancer in California you know! Seriously, hope you're feeling better. Just imagine the top fuel pit crew people who inhale that crap day in day out.

 

[drdoom405]

Don't get it in your eyes either...

I repeat, DO NOT get it in your eyes.

I speak from experience..

 

[Fast_Eddie_86]

Well it does cause cancer in California you know!

Everything causes cancer in California! :

hope you're alright and feeling better.

 

[syphon68]

OK OK I will take the open bottle of Nitro I use as an air freshener in my truck out of there hope you are feeling better...

 

[jschleer]

Hope you are feeling better! I think I've got about a 30% mixture in my veins!
My name is J Schleer ..........and I'm an addict!

 

[moe7404]

"Fully burnt it's 'fairly' harmless CO2, Water and Nitrogen. " NOT! in the chamber nitro seperates and then recombines to make hydrogen. note the fire coming out of a top fuel pipes is hydrogen, not nitro.

 

[PaulC]

"Fully burnt it's 'fairly' harmless CO2, Water and Nitrogen. " NOT! in the chamber nitro seperates and then recombines to make hydrogen. note the fire coming out of a top fuel pipes is hydrogen, not nitro.

Emmm. No.

Nitro Methane Burning:
4CH3NO2 + 3O2 → 4CO2 + 6H2O + 2N2

4 parts nitro methane, 3 parts oxygen gives 4 parts carbon dioxide, 6 parts water and 2 parts molecular Nitrogen.... and a poop load of heat.

Methanol Burning:
2 CH3OH + 3 O2 → 2 CO2 + 4 H2O
2 parts Methanol, 3 parts oxygen gives 2 parts carbon dioxide and 4 parts water and a poop load of heat.

The hydrogen is bounded to the oxygen to create water. This is pretty much chemistry 101 and is common in almost all oxygen based combustion.

Light a match. Look closely at the base of the flame on the wood. You see the water? That's NOT water from the wood, that is water from the combustion condensing on the wood.

Look up in the sky, so those trails of 'cloud' from jet liners? Water. Produced in the combustion of jet fuel and oxygen.

Start a car on a cold day and you see that cloud of steam? Yep. Water produced in the combustion of petrol and oxygen.

The flame you see is almost certainly unburnt fuel igniting in the exhaust.

 

[Scrogg]

Amen on the headache! Every race day I'm in hell. My head pounds for a good 24 hours, nothing helps but time and water....

 

[moe7404]

ok i can understand that i read something that was wrong. i can understand i was dumb enough to repeat it. but if nitro burning is not that harm full how come the drivers in top fuel cars have to wear masks so they dont pass out, even setting in FRONT of the engine? and if you go to the pits at the drag strip you can't stand closer than 30 ft without a mask when they test fire a nitro car. my idea is that both methanol and nitro CAN be harm full, but if you are careful one can use them with out killing your self. thanks for not drilling an old man full of holes.

 

[PaulC]

No Worries.

It's the unburnt stuff that is highly toxic, including the vapor and whatever is ejected unburnt.

Methanol when drunk is fatal with only 100ml. Blindness after only 30ml. <1ml Makes you ill. There are many blind drunks around who thought it would be a cheap way to get drunk drinking Meths.

Interestingly though they normally get away with drinking more of the Meths you buy in a hardware store as it is mostly 'denatured alcohol' as Methanol is more expensive to make that ethyl alcohol (the stuff in normal booze that is not anywhere near as toxic and requires quite a bit to poison you). However as selling ethyl alcohol requires tight health and safety regulations (as it is considered fit for human consumption), they add impurities to it and usually die it purple or such, so they don't need to conform to the regs. Then they sell it as 'Meths' for hardware use.

A model nitro engine expells the unburnt methanol that was used as cooling in a rich engine. In my case my engine is still running 1/2 a turn above factory rich and I was inhaling the exhaust at one point kneeling over the car until I choked and gagged. Bad.

There is another VERY, VERY important reason to wear a mask around methanol fueled cars, especially big ones. If there is a methanol spill, especially in a hot climate, it will start to vaporize rapidly. The vapor can be inhaled. The vapor is also HIGHLY flammable. If there is a pit fire, methanol burns with a flame that is virtually impossible to see in day light, before you know it, you are in the flames and... the vapor in your lungs ignites causing severe internal damage!

 

[2revo1maxx]

"Fully burnt it's 'fairly' harmless CO2, Water and Nitrogen. " NOT! in the chamber nitro seperates and then recombines to make hydrogen. note the fire coming out of a top fuel pipes is hydrogen, not nitro.

Obviously when the fire is coming out that means the fuel is being burnt fully, but idling at the line it's half unburnt fuel. I'm no chemist but I know they want unburnt fuel coming out because it cools the engine. The crew members standing at the starting line are breathing that crap.

 

[PaulC]

An interesting asides....

Motorbikes these days are fitted with a thing called "Secondary Air System". It's a one way reed valve on the exhaust port that uses the vacuum effect (T bar fitting across a high speed flow line = vacuum on the 'stem' of the T) to draw fresh air from the air filter and mix it with the hot exhaust gas. Any unburnt fuel being spat out the exhaust will suddenly find itself in a relatively oxygen rich and VERY hot environment, causing it to ignite.

It's to lower emissions of carbureted bikes, which are designed so you don't have to tune them and they can run from 0 foot ASL to 10,000ft ASL in all climates. Thus they are often setup quite rich and spit unburnt petrol fuel out.

Most are moving to be fuel injection now.

2 stroke bikes (like 50cc scooters) by the way do more environmental damage in 10 miles than an SUV in 100. Cause they spit out unburnt fuel, burn oil and spit unburnt oil out the exhaust. Not nice for good old mother nature.

Neat trick I seen on a scooter. Might work on a nitro. Fill your exhaust pipe full of WD40 when the engine is hot, start the engine and light the stinger with a match! Blue flame for the WIN... err. Probably FAIL!

 

[moe7404]

yea i think i have read what you said about 'denatured alcohol'. if iam remembering right, that at indy when they full up a race car, when the fuel nozzle is removed they spray water on the spillage to lesson the fire hazzard. cause when the water mixes with the methanol and it is much harder for it to burn. if i am remembering wright. so there a Q. should we have some water with us when we are bashing in case it trys to burn? and/or wash off our clothes, skin, rc truck. i think i would rather clean water off my rc truck, than a fire
extinguishers dry power.

 

[PaulC]

There's always a fire risk with fuel cars. Electrics don't get off free either, LiPo's explode in a cloud of grey toxic smoke if shorted.

Pay attention what you do with the fuel in the bottle and fuel tank. What goes through the engine doesn't matter, what comes out the exhaust you'd find hard to burn. What gets spilt over the engine almost certainly won't ignite at 130*C.

Just keep the fuel and vapor away from ignition sources.

You'll note that I smoked a cigarette with my hands still damp in fuel and lived. Depends on how much risk you like to take.

 

[moe7404]

man o man cig while handling liquids that burn? ill suprise you, i dont think thats real dangers.
why? well iam not sure if this is true. but years ago a guy was painting while smoking. he said the cig can't light something on fire unless you knocked fire off of the cig. and the pant vapor had to be so thick you could not see 3 ft for it to be enough to light. now i dont know this is true, its just what an old welder told me. how ever what happens to the fuel vapor as it goes through the cig and on into you? i was a machinist for 25 years, at a large aircraft mfg. they took out most or all flamable liquids, ie the ones used to clean machines and parts. and replaced them with synthetic liquids. better? no! still can't smoke around them cause when the vapor went through throu the cig it made toixic gass.

 

[darkslayor24]

ok, I'm a little late into this, but for the person who said dragracers wear masks to keep the fumes out...WRONG! you still breath just as many fumes through that mask. the mask is a fire retardent mask, not an airflow mask! this comming from a racer himself