Turns, Winds, kV, and Poles Explained.

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Greywolf74

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Electric RCs can be confusing especially for people that are newer to the hobby and, some aspects of electrics can be confusing even to RC veterans, so I thought Id take a few minutes and explain some things that tends to trip people up. This post is going to attempt to explain what "Turns", "Winds", "kV", and "Poles" are in DC motors.

One thing that I see all the time is people confused about the difference between turns and kV. They both are an indication of how fast and/or torque"y" the motor is but theres no direct way of comparing one to the other. The only thing we can do is look up a chart or do some math to come up with an approximation. Most, if not all, of the Turns to kV charts I've found on the internet seem to all be based on a chart that was created by RC Car Action. Ill post their chart below. As far as I can tell, RCCA's chart was based on tests done on 4 different motors (The motors that are highlighted) and the rest were extrapolated from those four results. Someone correct me if I'm wrong about this.


turns to kv.jpg



I have also found this formula for approximating kV to turns that was based directly on this chart. Using this formula, as noted below, the approximations get less accurate as you get closer to the extremes. (either really high or really low turn motors).

Turns to KV formula.JPG



kV rating is (as most people generally know) is how many RPMs a motor will spin per volt applied to it. For example a 2000kV motor will spin 2000RPM per volt of electricity applied to it. So if you give it 10V it will spin at 20,000RPM.

Turns, on the other hand, are how many times the copper wire inside the motor wraps around each armature of the motor. "kV" is kinda like HP in an engine and "Turns" has more to do with how the engine was built. This is why there is no direct correlation between turns and kV and it can only be approximated.

*NOTE* In the pic below where it says "To Battery" it really should say "To Speed Controller"

brushless_motor_diagram2.jpg


Then there are winds which are different than turns. Youve probably seen on some motors, like Castle Creations motors, Wye and Delta wind types listed. For example we all know the famous Castle 1515 2200kV and if you look at the can it will say 1515/1Y 2200kV on the can. The 1Y tells us that this motor has a 1 Wye wind. What is a wind? I can't say I fully understand everything there is to know about winds but what I do know is the basics. So in the previous paragraph we talked about how a 12T motor has the copper wire wrapped around each armature 12 times. The wind rating is actually a rating signifying two different things. Lets use 12T/1Y as an example. The 12T tells us that the copper wire is wrapped around each armature 12 times. The 1 in 1Y tells us that there is only 1 stand of copper being wound around each of the armatures 12 times. Wye and Delta just signifies the pattern in which the wire is wrapped and terminated before exiting the can to go to the ESC. So if we had a 12T/4D motor then each armature has 4 pieces of wire wrapped around it 12 times in the delta pattern. The pic below will give you a better idea of the difference between a wye and delta wind.

Delta and Wye Winds.jpg



As for poles this has to do with the number of magnetic "poles" inside the motor. A 2pole motor only has two magnets or "poles", a 4 pole has 4, etc etc. The poles or magnets are what is mounted to the "rotor" which is the piece that is essentially the shaft sticking out of the motor. The armatures that have the copper wire wrapped around them are called stators. The more poles the more torque but it also means less RPMs at least generally speaking. Sometimes, there are ways an engineer can make up for a motor having more or less torque/RPMs based on the type of winds used for a given turn rating but I'm not even going to go down that rabbit hole.

I already hear you asking "how can we tell how many poles a motor has?". Well the only sure fire 100% way is to take it apart and visually inspect it (or look at the motors specs) but the vast majority of the time motors that are listed in turns are 2 pole and motors listed with a kV rating are 4 (or more) poles. There are exceptions to this but most of the time this is going to be true at least from what I've read. One other possible way to tell a 2 pole motor from a 4 pole motor is to take a magnet and while holding the rotor still and get the magnet close enough to the motor to feel the push and pull of the poles (you want to keep the magnet off of the motor though) and slowly run it around the motor counting how many times you feel the poles change in one revolution.

maxresdefault.jpg



Incidentally if you didnt know this already, brushed motors also have stators and rotors too but the copper wire is wound around the rotor instead of the stator and the magnets are placed on the stator, which in the case of a brushed motor, the stator is basically the entire inside of the can. This is why brushed motors have to have brushes. Since you can't hook wires up directly to a spinning rotor the brushes take the electricity from the wires and transfer it to the rotor. The brushes are pushed against a section of the rotor called the commutator by springs so that they keep in constant contact with it. This is how the turns of copper wire are powered when they are attached to the rotor.


Model-of-a-brush-DC-motor.png



This pic here shows the wear spots from where the brushes were in contact with the commutator while it was spinning. The separations in the commutator are how the rotor activates each section of windings. That way only the section that is in contact with the brushes is active and thats what allows it to "chase" the magnets around and spin.

brushed commutator.jpg



This is probably waaaaay more in depth than anyone wanted to know but i hope that clears up some of the confusion around turns, winds, kV and poles.
 
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Very interesting. Gonna have to reread to soak ot all up.
 
Thanks guys! Its a lot to soak in but hopefully it clears up questions that people have surrounding that stuff. :)
 
Electric RCs can be confusing especially for people that are newer to the hobby and, some aspects of electrics can be confusing even to RC veterans, so I thought Id take a few minutes and explain some things that tends to trip people up. This post is going to attempt to explain what "Turns", "Winds", "kV", and "Poles" are in DC motors.

One thing that I see all the time is people confused about the difference between turns and kV. They both are an indication of how fast and/or torque"y" the motor is but theres no direct way of comparing one to the other. The only thing we can do is look up a chart or do some math to come up with an approximation. Most, if not all, of the Turns to kV charts I've found on the internet seem to all be based on a chart that was created by RC Car Action. Ill post their chart below. As far as I can tell, RCCA's chart was based on tests done on 4 different motors (The motors that are highlighted) and the rest were extrapolated from those four results. Someone correct me if I'm wrong about this.


turns to kv.jpg



I have also found this formula for approximating kV to turns that was based directly on this chart. Using this formula, as noted below, the approximations get less accurate as you get closer to the extremes. (either really high or really low turn motors).

Turns to KV formula.JPG



kV rating is (as most people generally know) is how many RPMs a motor will spin per volt applied to it. For example a 2000kV motor will spin 2000RPM per volt of electricity applied to it. So if you give it 10V it will spin at 20,000RPM.

Turns, on the other hand, are how many times the copper wire inside the motor wraps around each armature of the motor. "kV" is kinda like HP in an engine and "Turns" has more to do with how the engine was built. This is why there is no direct correlation between turns and kV and it can only be approximated.

*NOTE* In the pic below where it says "To Battery" it really should say "To Speed Controller"

brushless_motor_diagram2.jpg


Then there are winds which are different than turns. Youve probably seen on some motors, like Castle Creations motors, Wye and Delta wind types listed. For example we all know the famous Castle 1515 2200kV and if you look at the can it will say 1515/1Y 2200kV on the can. The 1Y tells us that this motor has a 1 Wye wind. What is a wind? I can't say I fully understand everything there is to know about winds but what I do know is the basics. So in the previous paragraph we talked about how a 12T motor has the copper wire wrapped around each armature 12 times. The wind rating is actually a rating signifying two different things. Lets use 12T/1Y as an example. The 12T tells us that the copper wire is wrapped around each armature 12 times. The 1 in 1Y tells us that there is only 1 stand of copper being wound around each of the armatures 12 times. Wye and Delta just signifies the pattern in which the wire is wrapped and terminated before exiting the can to go to the ESC. So if we had a 12T/4D motor then each armature has 4 pieces of wire wrapped around it 12 times in the delta pattern. The pic below will give you a better idea of the difference between a wye and delta wind.

Delta and Wye Winds.jpg



As for poles this has to do with the number of magnetic "poles" inside the motor. A 2pole motor only has two magnets or "poles", a 4 pole has 4, etc etc. The poles or magnets are what is mounted to the "rotor" which is the piece that is essentially the shaft sticking out of the motor. The armatures that have the copper wire wrapped around them are called stators. The more poles the more torque but it also means less RPMs at least generally speaking. Sometimes, there are ways an engineer can make up for a motor having more or less torque/RPMs based on the type of winds used for a given turn rating but I'm not even going to go down that rabbit hole.

I already hear you asking "how can we tell how many poles a motor has?". Well the only sure fire 100% way is to take it apart and visually inspect it (or look at the motors specs) but the vast majority of the time motors listed in turns are 2 pole and motors listed with kV are 4 (or more) poles. There are exceptions to this but most of the time this is going to be true at least from what I've read. One other possible way to tell a 2 pole motor from a 4 pole motor is to take a magnet and while holding the rotor still and get the magnet close enough to the motor to feel the push and pull of the poles (you want to keep the magnet off of the motor though) and slowly run it around the motor counting how many times you feel the poles change in one revolution.

maxresdefault.jpg



Incidentally if you didnt know this already, brushed motors also have stators and rotors too but the copper wire is wound around the rotor instead of the stator and the magnets are placed on the stator which in the case of a brushed motor the stator is basically the entire inside of the can. This is why brushed motors have to have brushes. Since you can't hook wires up directly to a spinning rotor the brushes take the electricity from the wires and transfer it to the rotor. The brushes are pushed against a section of the rotor called the commutator by springs so that they keep in constant contact with it. This is how the turns of copper wire are powered when they are attached to the rotor.


Model-of-a-brush-DC-motor.png



This pic here shows the wear spots from where the brushes were in contact with the commutator while it was spinning. The separations in the commutator are how the rotor activates each section of windings. That way only the section that is in contact with the brushes is active and thats what allows it to "chase" the magnets around and spin.

brushed commutator.jpg



This is probably waaaaay more in depth than anyone wanted to know but i hope that clears up some of the confusion around turns, winds, kV and poles.
Well done sir... Nice job breaking down and explaining the difference.. 👍👍 Thanks
 
Let me know if you guys would like me to write up anything else about electrics that youd like to know about. I'm happy to do it when I have time :)
 
This was very helpful information! Thank you for taking the time to break it down.
 
Very good presentation. A lot of good information as well as great pictures.
 
So curious - as I come from the old days, and still can't make sense of the KV vs. winds/turns.

What number of turns are there in say 1/8th scale brushless motors? The KV numbers change, but do we care about the number of winds anymore? It used to be you could have 6 or 7 turns all the way into the high teens in modified motors, and then each of those turns could have singles, doubles, etc. in the number of winds per turn. You'd get more torque with lower numbers of winds, but higher RPMs with higher numbers of winds. There would be some overlap along the graph of say, 9 Quint, vs. 14 Double.

I'm gathering we just don't care about the number of turns or the thickness of the wire anymore, or the number of wires/winds of each turn. But maybe it does matter. Curious why these motors don't state anything but KV.

Now I'm seeing 1/10th motors at 13.5, 17.5, etc. What does that mean? 17 turns yeah, but what's the .5? That's what we used to call a 17 Quint. Or are all brushless motors just single winds, and the turns are all that matters? If I hand-wound a motor, without having to adhere to a spec of anything but the number of turns, I can play with copper gauge of those windings to make my motor faster or have more torque.

Edit - also after some further thought, I'd still like to hear about this, but my guess is that there's no single way to determine power/efficiency of a motor without implicitly saying turns/winds/gauge of wire, etc., and that KV is simply a way to take all of that into consideration and put it into a single rating/number.
 
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So curious - as I come from the old days, and still can't make sense of the KV vs. winds/turns.

What number of turns are there in say 1/8th scale brushless motors? The KV numbers change, but do we care about the number of winds anymore? It used to be you could have 6 or 7 turns all the way into the high teens in modified motors, and then each of those turns could have singles, doubles, etc. in the number of winds per turn. You'd get more torque with lower numbers of winds, but higher RPMs with higher numbers of winds. There would be some overlap along the graph of say, 9 Quint, vs. 14 Double.
Unfortunately I'm not old school enough to have been around for the double and quint terminology but basically these days motor are either given a turn rating or a kV rating. The vast majority of the time 2 pole motors are listed in turns and 4 pole or 6 pole motors are listed in kV. Also you generally only see turn ratings on 1/10 scale (or maybe smaller) motors, I honestly can't say why. I have a feeling that turn ratings may have been completely replaced by kV ratings if they didnt use it as a general way to distinguish 2 pole motors from 4 pole motors. Thats just a guess though. I can't say for sure.

Theyre both basically a way to rate how fast the motors are and its generally the only thing that is really considered these days. The type of wind a motor has will give it certain tertiary characteristics but its not something that most people give any consideration too these days. In a motor that is rated in turns the lower the turns the faster the motor and with kV its the opposite, the higher the kV the faster the motor. Of course you generally trade torque for speed so the faster the motor the lower the torque it will have. In the case of kV the kV rating is how you determine the RPM of the motor. kV means for each volt of electricity you put in to the motor you will get that many RPM. So a 3000kV motor for example would spin 3,000RPM with 1 volt applied to it or 30,000RPM with 10 volts. There is no direct comparison between turns and kV unfortunately but there are some charts out there, like the one I posted above, that can help you come up with an estimation.

To more directly address your question here, winds are not something that many people care about these days. Maybe hard core racers or engineers care but the average hobbyist doesn't.

I'm gathering we just don't care about the number of turns or the thickness of the wire anymore, or the number of wires/winds of each turn. But maybe it does matter. Curious why these motors don't state anything but KV.
We care about the number of turns if a motor is rated in turns. If its rated in kV we use the kV rating instead of the turn rating to the same end. These days we generally do not care about thickness of wire or the type of wind. Most people couldnt tell you what a turn is let alone a wind. If its a 2 pole motor than the turns are used to determine the speed of the motor and likewise if its 4 pole or more motor than kV is used to make that same determination. Some motors do have the wind type listed on them too but its not a consideration most of the RC world cares about. Again, maybe you're really hard core racers might, IDK. I'm not a racer. I'm just a basher.

Now I'm seeing 1/10th motors at 13.5, 17.5, etc. What does that mean? 17 turns yeah, but what's the .5? That's what we used to call a 17 Quint. Or are all brushless motors just single winds, and the turns are all that matters? If I hand-wound a motor, without having to adhere to a spec of anything but the number of turns, I can play with copper gauge of those windings to make my motor faster or have more torque.
This is a really good question that I honestly dont have an answer for. Its not even something I've really stopped to consider. What makes a 17.5T motor the same speed as another brand 17.5 because they can play with number of strands, wind types, wire gauge etc to give two different 17.5T motors completely different characteristics. The only thing I can guess (I dont have time tonight to do any online research on it) is that there is some sort of industry standard that says a 17.5T motors must falls within X/Y/Z guidelines and the manufacturers just build the motors anyway they want to get a 17.5T to perform within a certain range in order to be called a 17.5T. That of course is purely speculation on my part. I'll have to look in to that when I get more time. It could be that the speed and torque of various 17.5T motors are drastically different too and you either just have to know enough about motors to understand how all of those aspects impact a motor or you just have to experiment to see which motor gives you the best lap times. Your average basher isnt going to care if they have a "hot" 17.5T motor or a "torque-y" one. Actually your average basher probably isnt even using a 2 pole motor in the first place unless its in a drift car, No Prep car, or maybe an on road car.

Edit - also after some further thought, I'd still like to hear about this, but my guess is that there's no single way to determine power/efficiency of a motor without implicitly saying turns/winds/gauge of wire, etc., and that KV is simply a way to take all of that into consideration and put it into a single rating/number.
kV and Turns are two ways to relay the same basic information. Which is "how fast is this motor?"

Hope this helps and thanks for the great question!
 
Number of turns can't really translate to kv directly. There is many factors that affect kv in 2 pole motors.

1. Stator design. Not an expert but different manufactures use different designs.

2. Rotor magnetic strength. Weaker magnet higher kv but lower torque and vice versa.

3. Rotor and stator size and gap. Lower the gap lower kv but higher torque. Roar approved stator size is 12.5mm some rotors for drag racing can be up to 14mm diameter. 12.3mm rotors provide higher kv but lower torque. Outlaw motors have 12.5 mm rotor but smaller diameter stator for lower gap. They are lower kv higher torque

4. Timing. 2 pole motors can operate from 0 to 60 degrees of timing. Fixed timing motors are usually set between 25 and 35. Higher the timing advance higher the kv will be
 
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