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RatzoRC

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  1. Racing
I'm getting back into electric off road.
I have a B4, and T4 that I will be getting up and running again, and have some questions.
The problem is this. I forgot most of what I knew.
I will be running modified (12 double in both trucks), and need to know what batteries to look for. I want to be competitive, and not be slower due to less battery.

I know what a matched pack is, but what is zapped?
I remember that in off road, we didn't look for the best battery, but in on road we did??? I don't remember why.

Someone help me with these silly questions.
I'm out of my element.
 
RatzoRC said:
I'm getting back into electric off road.
I have a B4, and T4 that I will be getting up and running again, and have some questions.
The problem is this. I forgot most of what I knew.
I will be running modified (12 double in both trucks), and need to know what batteries to look for. I want to be competitive, and not be slower due to less battery.

I know what a matched pack is, but what is zapped?
I remember that in off road, we didn't look for the best battery, but in on road we did??? I don't remember why.

Someone help me with these silly questions.
I'm out of my element.

Having started out with electric, and running pretty much every RC10 up to the #3 line (I haven't gotten the newest ones... yet), I can help ya out. (I started with electric some 15 years ago)

On the battery packs, the key thing you will be looking for, aside from matched with the highest mAh rating, is the discharge rate. The higher the number, the better. Typical numbers for a good stock racing pack are around 35a. If you can find a pack with a higher number; grab it!

Next issue, "zapped" packs. It's pretty much as the name/term implies. The cells are zapped with a pulse of high current. Zapping gives them a slightly higher output voltage, but this effect wears off after 15-20 charge cycles. IMO; not worth the extra cost, unless you are going to some event, like the Worlds.

The next thing here, and it's often the most overlooked; your wiring. Most people will run 12gauge wire, and call it a day. I run 10gauge. The step up in gauge translates to a higher current flow which is very noticable. It translates into a slightly better off the line punch, and a little more top end. In the range of around 5 to 6 percent, for those who are curious.

Connectors, these are another issue. I hardwire both motor and pack. A little bit of an inconvienence, but in the end, it's worth it. The pack simply will not come unplugged if you "lawn dart" off the 3rd jump on the track in the last lap, while you're in the lead (had it happen).

It all boils to getting the highest amp output of the pack, to the motor in the most efficient way possible.

Lastly, and most important; get a good quality charger; your packs will only be as good as the charge you put into them. Novak Millenium is what I use, but one day, I aim to have a Turbo35. And a good quality discharge tray; something like the old Trinity Realtime2 tray, which equalises the cells for a more complete charge.

Now, as to the question "better packs for onroad vs offroad". The only answer I can come up with is, because onroad is slightly smoother, therefore requiring less torque, the motor can be geared fairly "tall", therefore calling for a pack with a much higher amp output, vs offroad, where it's all torque.
 
HeartBreak said:
Having started out with electric, and running pretty much every RC10 up to the #3 line (I haven't gotten the newest ones... yet), I can help ya out. (I started with electric some 15 years ago)

On the battery packs, the key thing you will be looking for, aside from matched with the highest mAh rating, is the discharge rate. The higher the number, the better. Typical numbers for a good stock racing pack are around 35a. If you can find a pack with a higher number; grab it!

Next issue, "zapped" packs. It's pretty much as the name/term implies. The cells are zapped with a pulse of high current. Zapping gives them a slightly higher output voltage, but this effect wears off after 15-20 charge cycles. IMO; not worth the extra cost, unless you are going to some event, like the Worlds.

The next thing here, and it's often the most overlooked; your wiring. Most people will run 12gauge wire, and call it a day. I run 10gauge. The step up in gauge translates to a higher current flow which is very noticable. It translates into a slightly better off the line punch, and a little more top end. In the range of around 5 to 6 percent, for those who are curious.

Connectors, these are another issue. I hardwire both motor and pack. A little bit of an inconvienence, but in the end, it's worth it. The pack simply will not come unplugged if you "lawn dart" off the 3rd jump on the track in the last lap, while you're in the lead (had it happen).

It all boils to getting the highest amp output of the pack, to the motor in the most efficient way possible.

Lastly, and most important; get a good quality charger; your packs will only be as good as the charge you put into them. Novak Millenium is what I use, but one day, I aim to have a Turbo35. And a good quality discharge tray; something like the old Trinity Realtime2 tray, which equalises the cells for a more complete charge.

Now, as to the question "better packs for onroad vs offroad". The only answer I can come up with is, because onroad is slightly smoother, therefore requiring less torque, the motor can be geared fairly "tall", therefore calling for a pack with a much higher amp output, vs offroad, where it's all torque.

Thanks for the great tips.
A lot of what you told me I did know, but you did help me with the battery questions that I had, and the zapping answer was helpful.
The equipment for charging and discharging, I still have (I didn't sell everything lol).
That was very helpful Heartbreak, I appreciate it. :D
 
No prob :) The reason I suggested a more expensive charger isn't for bragging rights, lol. It is because of the overall design. The novak millenium is sort of the poor-mans' Turbo35. It false-peaks a lot less than, say, a duratrax peak charger. Course, if you get a DC-only charger, it is only as good as its' power supply. The rule of thumb here is, around 5 times the peak amperage you plan on charging, at the minimum, for the rating. The higher, the better.

Also, it is configurable for 4-8 cells, from .5 to 6 amps, nihm and nicad (yep, I still run nicads when I bash).

Also, as stated above; the charge you get in the end is only as good as the pack is discharged (if that makes sense). A pack is a lot less likely to false-peak if it is equalised, using a tray. I take mine down to .9v a cell (average) with a Deans Blackbox discharger, hooked up to 12 1157 automotive tail lamps (wired in paralel). Mine is sort of overkill; you will want to match the load to the output of the pack.

From there, I take the cells down to about .3v a cell (each) with the Realtime2 tray.

After they cool, I charge my packs at 4.5 amps. Run, enjoy, and repeat.

The disclaimer here is, this is my discharge/charge routine; everyone has their own ways (sort of like nitro break-in). Your mileage may vary. This routine has yielded some 2400mah nicads that still take a charge like they were new (some 5 years later).

The key thing is to store nihm with a partial charge; nicads near dead.

I really need to update my packs, lol.

One last piece of advice; store nihms with at least a 40% charge. I have noticed that nicad tends to self charge back to around 1.1 volt, however, nihms' tend to self-drain.
 
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I have 2 LRP chargers. A competition 1 & competition 2 with a Rivergate 30 amp power supply.

I will use your charge and discharge methods and see how it works for me.
Your tips and advice are great. If there is anything that you leaving out, please don't feel like your saying too much. I can and will use all the advice I can get. I have some GP 3300 batteries from a while back, that I will try to bring back to life.
Thanks again.
 
I'm using the Turbo35.
What PS do like?
What do I look for?
I have a PS but am getting some inconsistent charges from it and suspect the PS is the culprit.
 
I have the Novak N-power "purple" supply. It only outs about 10 amps, which is more than adequate for the Millenium (since it's a fairly basic charger, by todays' standards). For the Turbo35, I would recommend, at the very least, 15 amps. That is, if you are only powering the charger at the time.

Ratzos' setup should be more than enough for getting a great charge. Those LRPs are supposed to be great little chargers.

If your GP3300's were stored for an excessive amount of time with no charge in them, they could have gone flat, and then into "reversal". If that is the case, bringing them back may be a lost-cause. You might get lucky, though, and be able to bring them back. It takes at least 6-8 months for this to happen from a 40% charge, though. It could take 3 or 4 charge/discharge cycles to "wake" the cell(s) up.

Now, as for the power supply, you may want to check the power outlet, all fuses, power cords, and connections before you replace it. It could be as simple as a dirty connector or an old worn-out cord (mine, for example, uses a PC power cord). It could even be an excess of dust in the supply, restricting heat dissipation.

If you've been getting an excessive amount of false peaks, you may want to raise your delta peak detection setting by about one increment. For example, with the millenium, I set mine for as low as it goes for charging nihms (4 millivolt, if I recall right), but I do have one reciever pack that refuses to peak all the way, so I have to set it to the next setting-up (5 millivolt). The caveat here is to watch the temperature of the pack closely, and disconnect it if it gets excessively warm.

How old is your power supply and how much wattage, Eddy? (by how old, I mean how much usage has it seen?)

I don't think I've left anything out... Some people I used to race with, they would write down their charge/discharge times/results. Personally, I just use the pack until it stops holding enough of a charge to last the race. Then it gets demoted to practice/bash duty.

Coming up, I'll post the instructions on how to make a blackbox-type discharger for reciever packs (using an automotive relay and a single 1156 bulb). It's based on the design of the Deans Blackbox discharger.
 
HeartBreak said:
Coming up, I'll post the instructions on how to make a blackbox-type discharger for reciever packs (using an automotive relay and a single 1156 bulb). It's based on the design of the Deans Blackbox discharger.

That would be great Heartbreak... Great idea for the do-it-yourself'ers.....
 
I'm using an 18 amp Mean Well S-250-12
http://www.phaseonepower.com/Meanwell/pdf/s250.pdf
I modified it with banana plugs. It gives me enough power but I'm not sure if the output is consistent causing false peaks.

I have played around with the different Delta settings but it still remains inconsistent. It may be time to send the Turbo in and get all the firmware upgrades.

The PS is maybe 2 years old and has seen around 100 hours of use if I had to guess.
 
Here is the instructions and pictures to make the 5 cell reciever pack discharger. It is based on the Deans Blackbox, with the exception of a pushbutton to start it. To start it, you simply tap/thump it.
Reciever Pack Discharger said:
The key components that you will need are a standard 12v 35amp automotive relay, an 1156 (single element) automotive bulb (you can also put the bulb into a socket, for easy replacement), and a servo lead. You will also need about 8 inches of small gauge wire (same size as the servo lead).

The hardest part is the assembly. You will need a soldering iron, of course.

Step one is to solder the negative in from the battery and one of the leads from to bulb to terminal #85. Length does not matter here.

Step two is to solder the other lead to the bulb to terminal #30. Polarity does not matter. (this one is soldered to the bulb's casing on mine)

Now, the last step, this one is tricky. You will have to remaining terminals left, #86 and #87. Here is where the magic of the discharger happens; The other battery supply, along with about a half-inch of small gauge wire, is soldered to #87.

The other end of the half-inch wire is soldered to terminal #86.

At this point, you're done. It should look somethin like this:

attachment.jpg

attachment.jpg


You're probably wondering about the usage of this discharger....

Well, simply connect it to your pack. If it has enough of a charge, the bulb will light up.

If not, simply tap the relay.

When the pack voltage falls to 4.5, it will release. The relay will start to whine/groan as it nears the cutoff. Once you hear it click, it's done. Use with caution, as the bulb DOES get hot (I hang it over the bumper of the car's pack being discharged).

Here is the diagram of the relay, for those who are curious:

attachment.jpg


This device is intended to discharge reciever packs ONLY. Any other packs have too high of a cutoff voltage requirement for this device.
FastEddy said:
I'm using an 18 amp Mean Well S-250-12
http://www.phaseonepower.com/Meanwell/pdf/s250.pdf
I modified it with banana plugs. It gives me enough power but I'm not sure if the output is consistent causing false peaks.

I have played around with the different Delta settings but it still remains inconsistent. It may be time to send the Turbo in and get all the firmware upgrades.

The PS is maybe 2 years old and has seen around 100 hours of use if I had to guess.

The supply should be perfectly fine, provided that you have properly insulated them from the case. If you have a continuity tester (a decent multimeter will work), check the connectors for continuity against the power supply's case.

Before you send in the Turbo35, perhaps check it by connecting to a car battery and charging a pack. Do this with the engine OFF, and don't drive away with it under the hood (been there done that!).
 

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I'm lost......
What other battery?
What do you plug into the servo lead?
A pic is worth 1000 words.
 
Lol, pictures (via my scanner) comin right up. Will be edited into the post. The relay is black, so the text may not be visable on it. The device posted above is to discharge reciever packs before charging them. I edited the post so it'll break it up a little bit.

I got to lookin at the power supply booklet you supplied; it looks like it's nothin more than a modded PC power supply; it could have a ballist load going out (the mod calls for 6 10ohm/100watt resistors wired in paralel on the 5v line, to make the supply "sense" a load and turn on. If any of these resistors die or wear out, the power outputted can become weak). For reference; it's an AT (old school) style supply, not the newer ATX/BTX supplies in modern PCs.

I have one on my desk that I use for powering my comm lathe (it has 5v out taps).

If the Turbo35 manages to charge a pack to complete without false-peaking off of the car battery, I would suspect the power supply. Any power supply that is around 20amps, or so, should be more than sufficient.
 
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Hey go brushless with Apogee 2C 3800 pack - you wont be sorry you did.
With Lipos the whole traditional "battery maintenance" goes away as does the motor maintenance.
I have a blast with my setup in my T4 and ZX-5 both brushless and I use the 3800 pack. I am thinking of getting the new Mamba Max setup instead of using the Novak 5.5 in my ZX-5
I use a ICE charger (does Lipos and reg batts) I use a Apogee "Blinky" (their name for the pack balancer). Here are some links to check out

http://www.pfmdistribution.com/
http://www.beatyourtruck.com/prodreview-mambamax.html
 
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If you do go with lipo power you'll need new esc's or run the risk of ruining your packs unless yours have built in voltage detection. It is a good technology to consider.
 
The part# for that relay is RY115 from standard. I used to use them for everything. when I worked as a service mechanic I used to keep 4 on hand.
 
I think he is planing on racing.
Check the track rules before deciding to make the change.
 
Yup - I don't think Roar/Norcca/RCpro (if Norcca exists anymore) permit the use of lipo's, mostly because they can be dangerous if discharged beyond a certain point.
 
I have a question, HB you mention a quality discharge try (Trinity realtime2).

Does a discharge tray do something different than a charger with built-in discharge capability?

Ratz; hope you don't mind me jumping in on your thread.

I plan on venturing into the rug racing scene this winter and find this thread very enlightning.

Thanks,

Mr T
 
Mr T-Maxx said:
I have a question, HB you mention a quality discharge try (Trinity realtime2).

Does a discharge tray do something different than a charger with built-in discharge capability?

Ratz; hope you don't mind me jumping in on your thread.

I plan on venturing into the rug racing scene this winter and find this thread very enlightning.

Thanks,

Mr T

Yep. It (the tray) takes the cells down individually, where-as a charger with a discharge function takes the pack down all-at-once, to an average of .9v a cell (like a deans blackbox with a set of 1157 tail lamp bulbs would). With that in mind, one or more cells could still be over 1.0v, and one or more could, in theory, be under .8v.

The tray allows you to take all cells down to an even state before charging them again. Any tray other than the integy models are decent.

A key thing to remember is, discharge trays will only work with packs assembled in a cell side-by-side configuration (since it must access each cells' terminals).
 
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